First Visit to a Trainer

[bexie]

Since Molly's AWFUL obedience experience, I'm feeling really paranoid.

 

We've been looking for a possible herding trainer for a while. We'd found one potential pretty far away and he cost quite a pretty penny too. We'd been thinking about it. Then a few days ago DH encouraged me to go ahead and call on an ad for puppies from working parents even though he was pretty sure we wouldn't be getting a pup. We aren't (more than we want to spend right now and my health is annoying at the moment), but it did give us a name to google for for a possible trainer. The search led me to a web site I'd seen before but that isn't updated much and doesn't mention training (the site also sucks in Linux browsers).

 

But since we'd gotten the name, we went ahead and e-mailed on the contact info and got a very prompt reply. She trains on Sunday and we're welcome to come! It is still a good bit of a drive (and diesel here is pushing 2 dollars _a liter_ with the current exchange rates...) but she doesn't take a whole lot for a lesson and the first one is free. She says the first one is really just to turn her on.

 

DH and I agreed ages ago that he's to be primary stock trainer. Molly listens to him better and he's more agile and mobile than I am, especially on uneven terrain. I'm hoping that I can learn some of it but I expect that will come later--the main focus of lessons will be for him to get it then when he and Molly get it really well, I can maybe try some basic stuff here at home with her or something. We'll take that part as it comes. I'm cool with mostly just being an observer even though I'd love it because I know I'm limited because of my joint problems. If I tried to run around on a field, I'd be beat for days afterwards and as much as I'd love it, there is more to life. Also trainer will probably be speaking Danish and Danish in a hurry is not my strength. Leave DH to that. Plus he's better at reading stock than me (trained farmer, years of experience with cattle, which is mostly what we'll have to work on, also experience with sheep).

 

So with my paranoia, what should I be watching for while I am sitting there observing? I know I should trust my gut and I know I should trust Molly too. But are there other signs that should warn me of "not good enough" trainer?

 

The English version of the site doesn't exist (hmm... maybe I can pay for lessons by translating...), but if you want to click around in the Danish: Kennel Solfari

 

Any tips would be appreciated. Also just general tips of being prepared and whatever else for Sunday. It'll be about a 2 hour drive to get there and we need to be there at 1 in the afternoon. Molly's shots are all up to date, so no problems there. We've been working on her recall and it's getting really good, especially when DH is calling. She's got a good down for him even at a distance. He's been training that on with a very tempting ball game and she'll stay even when he plays with the ball. (I know, ball isn't stock, but it is the best we can do without sticking her in with the cows without a trainer!) Trainer says there isn't anything we should have with except us, dog, and a good mood.

 

Thanks everyone!

bex (and Molly) (and bex's DH)

[Alaska]

Bex,

 

Since no one knowledgeable has responded, I'll take a stab. Here's what I can offer:

 

1. Look at Little Hats. In particular, read Selecting an Instructor

 

2. Search this forum using phrases like "first lesson" or "find trainer". That will lead you to threads like this one: Two questions about possible trainer

 

These might seem like mundane replies to your question, but I think you will find them productive.

 

ETA: Here is another Little Hats article that seems to address your question fairly well: Class Action

[juliepoudrier]

Bexie,

I didn't look at the links Alaska provided, but I'd bet that have plenty of good information. I'm just going to mention some things that I would consider red flags or that would make me reconsider a particular trainer. I think one important thing is not to be so intimidated by the "expert" that you go against what seems right for you and your dog (within reason--that is, if you're a purely positive trainer, you will have to recognize that in training stockwork there is a place for correction). If you don't like the way the trainer handles/interacts with dogs or how the trainer treats his/her sheep, then it's not worth it for the stress it will cause you or your dog to train there. Another points is that for me personally, I learn best from someone I can connect with (that doesn't mean we have to be best buddies, but there needs to be mutual respect and understanding I think). You know how you'll meet some people and there's just something about them you don't like, but you can't really say what? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I wouldn't be able to learn easily from someone like that and so I probably wouldn't spend my time and money there unless my dog was making great strides under that person (and then I'd have to work hard to get over my personal dislike). Likewise, I would want a trainer who is similar to me in training style; otherwise it will be difficult for me to replicate the trainer's technique myself. So for example, if the trainer is a loud person and uses that loudness as a means of applying pressure on the dog, and you are an extremely soft-spoken person, you would want to consider whether you can adjust to the training technique that's being used for your dog. I guess what I'm saying is that if you are uncomfortable with the person, the way the animals are kept/treated, or the training techniques used, don't be afraid to reassess the situation and decide that it might not be right for you. (The other side to this is to be open minded and recognize that different folks have different styles, but if something bothers you, then you'll need to ask your trainer why he/she is doing it that way or be prepared to step in and tell him/her that you aren't comfortable with that method.) I'm probably not being very clear here, and I know it's hard for someone new to stockwork to judge a trainer, and it's not all about positive and feel good and all that, but if your instincts are screaming at you that something isn't right, it's probably wise to trust those instincts.

 

This all sounds very negative, but I think sometimes these are the kinds of things people don't always think about.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

Trainer says there isn't anything we should have with except us, dog, and a good mood.

 

That's a very good start! :-) I'd just second what Julie said mostly. Trust your gut in evaluating the trainer, and remember that you have to be your dog's advocate and make sure the style of training is appropriate for *your* dog. My first dog was a real softie and I learned pretty quickly to protect her from more heavy handed trainers by over-emphasizing her soft nature when going to new trainers/clinics. You can always get more firm with a dog but it's hard to back up if you over do it right at the start and "hurt her feelings". Good luck and have fun!

[Sue R]

Wow, Julie, you sure summed it up very well, I think, and Robin did also.

 

Sometimes a trainer does things differently than you are used to doing and so that might be a bit uncomfortable for you. But I think you need to look both critically and with an open mind, to see if it is just a different approach or if it's something that's really contrary to what you would like to see in your working relationship with your dog.

 

Some excellent trainers just do things differently and others' styles are just not acceptable or will not accomplish your goals reasonably. If you are not comfortable with a certain person or approach, you will not learn as easily and I think your dog will also pick up on your discomfort, and that's not a recipe for success and progress.

 

I do believe you need to trust your gut instinct, be your dog's advocate (as Robin says), and be willing to walk away and find another trainer if the one you locate just doesn't seem right for you or your dog - or be willing to adjust some of your expectations if the trainer is correct and reasonable but it's simply not what you are accustomed to.

 

A trainer should be willing to explain why they are doing something a particular way, what they are endeavoring to accomplish, and how you go about doing it. At the same time, the trainer needs to be very willing to listen to your concerns and your questions. A good trainer will give you a solid foundation so that you can learn to understand and work your own dog, rather than just telling/showing you how to do certain things (like running a course over and over without teaching you how to handle the dog and read the stock so you can adapt to changing and new situations).

 

I've made a lot of mistakes with my first dog, and he and I pay for that everytime we work together. A good foundation is so important and undoing certain mistakes in training is so difficult.

 

You might want to check out the Yahoo group called "Working Sheepdogs". That is UK/Europe-based and you might post a request for private replies to see if some on that list might be able to recommend trainers in your area.

 

Best wishes!

[bexie]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I read Alaska's links and they sounded good and Julie's comments firm up what I was feeling already. It looks like we're pretty well set for Sunday then if DH can get over his flu.

 

Molly is a pretty soft dog but can take correction if given the chance to see what the alternative is. I haven't given the trainer the long story of her bad obedience experience but I plan to tell her when we get there Sunday that she is a bit sensitive. Should I let her know before that? I could e-mail the story if you think that is better, but she didn't ask for more about Molly, so I thought perhaps she wanted to evaluate a bit herself. I also don't want to set Molly up for a fall--she's surprised us on more than one occasion by taking things in stride we thought would scare her, so maybe it is best to just see what happens and explain her history if there are problems or a build up to problems.

 

It helps that DH is with so we'll be two to evaluate things. I overreact more easily than he does and my Danish can be a bit muddled if I'm worried or upset about something, so he'll keep me balanced and give a second perspective on the training style. As long as it isn't bad for Molly, I going to let him do a lot of deciding, but I wanted tips on what I should watch out for and I think I have them now.

 

Plus I'd already determined that she doesn't breed for color by her web site. I will try to trust my gut and Molly and let everyone know how it goes.

 

Thanks!

bex

[PSmitty]

Molly is a pretty soft dog but can take correction if given the chance to see what the alternative is. I haven't given the trainer the long story of her bad obedience experience but I plan to tell her when we get there Sunday that she is a bit sensitive. Should I let her know before that? I could e-mail the story if you think that is better, but she didn't ask for more about Molly, so I thought perhaps she wanted to evaluate a bit herself. I also don't want to set Molly up for a fall--she's surprised us on more than one occasion by taking things in stride we thought would scare her, so maybe it is best to just see what happens and explain her history if there are problems or a build up to problems.

 

(I'm an Ultra newbie, so FWIW) Bex, there's a chance that Molly might surprise you on sheep. I don't have much experience, but I've heard of some soft dogs, that turned out not to be so soft on sheep. My Jack is the biggest scaredy cat (dog?) that I know of. He is scared of his own shadow some days, I swear. He is so soft, if you so much as raise your voice at him, he'll cower and shut down. BUT, on sheep, he's different. Totally different. Confident and comfortable, able to take correction and getting yelled at. It's amazing, really.

 

I think, if it were me, if you're comfortable with the trainer and her methods, I'd just give Molly a chance and see what happens. Of course you want her first first experience on sheep to be 100%, though. Hopefully your trainer will agree with that, and there won't be any or much correction to worry about. If you'd feel better, though, I guess it wouldn't hurt to talk to her before hand and make sure, warning her that Molly is a bit soft off sheep...

 

Sorry, that's probably no help at all, but mostly wanted to give you hope that Molly may be a dynamo on sheep, and you'll wonder where your softie went to.

[bexie]

DH and I agree that we like the way the trainer handles Molly. She doesn't let her get away with stuff, but she treats Molly like we think she should be. She's also going to help us with other Molly problems--the first thing she commented on was how Molly pulled on the leash and that the choke chain was a bad idea (we'll get back to that).

 

There are a few things I don't like. She's more pro KC than I like--she blames the negative impact of the KC on the breed on bad breeders. But she breeds for a good work dog with a decent temperament and an acceptable appearance: basically a good work dog that fits into the family. That works for me. I think it works for the breed. She only breeds good proven work stock with good health.

 

So those are background things. Now for the lesson.

 

At first we only saw one of her own dogs. The others were kenneled. There should have been other people there but they had canceled (the weather was YUCK. not rainy, but YUCK). Molly had no fear or concern about that dog and he was fine with her but didn't really want much to do with her.

 

Her dog put a small flock of sheep into a decent sized round pen inside a square one then she put her dog into another pen. Then she let Molly loose in the square pen. Her goal was to let Molly sniff and figure things out on her own. Molly showed signs of stress at first--barking at the sheep with her bristles up and running pretty frantically around. The trainer just kept tabs that the sheep were fine and let her be. After a bit, Molly settled down and got interested in the sheep. I mean really interested in the sheep. Sheep focused.

 

The trainer said Molly was over the stress then and turned on, so she started to work with her to see how it would go. She first had Molly balancing her--opposite her on the other side of the sheep. Molly worked that out pretty quick. Then she went in with the sheep and left Molly out. When she started moving the sheep, she wanted Molly to go to their heads to stop them and she did that automatically too. Then she started adding the come bye and away commands to what Molly was doing. Then she called it a day. Didn't want to do more and she felt that Molly was doing really well.

 

So it looks so far like Molly has potential! We'll just have to see how it goes.

 

 

I asked about the fence thing... having Molly work outside the fence. She does that the first few times so the starting dog doesn't need to get corrected as much. This way she can't get too close to the sheep so won't need to get corrected for that and is more likely to have a positive experience. It isn't going to go that way for very long. That makes sense to me.

 

 

After the lesson, talked about a lot of things. First, Molly isn't and can't be DKK registered because her mother's hips are too bad. Eve (Molly's mother) was disqualified for breeding because her hips tested at D level. So it was a lie we got from the seller when he said she could be registered (big surprise here. we were ignorant buyers but that doesn't mean we got a bad dog for a pet and she might even do fine herding too). She isn't sure, but she thinks there were problems in Molly's father's line as well. Although the grandmother trailed well, it didn't come through in the breeding. She thinks there may also have been problems with the grandsire that resulted in him being removed from breeding later (he has very few litters in the database).

 

As for the collar issue, she gave us some good tips for training Molly not to pull. It seems to be working for us and for Molly. We can feel the difference already. We back up when she pulls (letting her pull if she continues to go forward) and call her softly towards us, otherwise ignoring her behavior). Once she is back on a slack leash and attentive again, we can go forward. Repeat as needed. Taking her with to feed the horses and back today probably took more time than it took to feed, but it is making a difference.

 

DH has been feeling less and less comfortable with the choke to begin with and her comments on it were enough for him to agree to drop it. Monday he made Molly a new leather collar. I don't think she will ever have a choke put on her again.

 

We also talked about whose dog she is and how she is at home. I've been having trouble getting DH to ignore her when she whines. Somehow the trainer managed to explain it to him in a way that worked. He did it Monday and Tuesday (home sick with a migraine) and Molly is already a different dog when he is home. He is also no longer playing with her at her request and playing much less with her overall. No more playing during meals and no more Molly on his lap at the dinner table. It's like we have a much more mature and settled dog in only 3 days.

 

So Molly is my dog and I'll be the stock handler too. Trainer thinks it is important that one person be the primary trainer for the dog. When we talked about it in detail, I probably have more respect from Molly at that point than Bryan does. She seems to prefer him, but that is most likely because he does what she wants where I expect things of her and set limits. I am better at saying no and ignoring silly demands.

 

All thoughts of dog number 2 are set aside until Molly is better under control. When we're working Molly better, she's willing to help us find a suitable dog with a more reputable background. She had a pup there that I was absolutely drooling over. Fortunately it is bound for Sweden so I didn't feel too compelled to sneak it under my jacket and bring it home. Also she said that she thinks that particular pup is too hard-headed for us and wouldn't be a good choice. It would probably have us both wrapped around her furry little ears.

 

You'll have to excuse the lack of pictures. I forgot the camera in the car!

 

Oh, one thing she says we rather disagree with: she is very anti-ball. She showed us why though. The one dog she has, the one that she used to bring the sheep in: he is ball crazy if he sees a ball. I had one in my pocket so she showed us what happens. All thought of sheep fell out of his head. He was completely useless for a long time after he saw the ball. No one had to play ball with him. Just that we dropped the ball on the grass. He was obsessed and crazy and his brain really fell out. So, should we really quit playing ball with Molly or should be just make sure she doesn't get obsessed like that by controlling her ball access? DH really likes to play ball with her and is feeling pretty sad about not getting to really play WITH her with a ball or anything else. My thought is that what is important is that HE control the ball or whatever. He get it out when he wants to play and he decide when the game is over. I think the real problem is the BC thinking it controls the toy and the game and the human and that there is nothing else in life. When we play with Molly, she can easily drop the ball for something else exciting.

 

Feedback is welcome. Also for points I should continue to keep tabs on as we continue with this trainer. I do intend to continue because we feel good about it and Molly likes her, but I'm open to comments that say "this is a warning sign. Watch this" or "Go read this about why this training method can be a problem".

 

I especially want to continue because she got through to DH on so many important points I've not been able to explain to him properly the whole time we've had Molly. They're points I know you'll agree with--the choke chain, the ignoring the whining, etc.

 

Thanks everyone!

bex and Molly

[jvw]

Sounds like a pretty good experience.

 

FWIW, my Seamus is toy obsessed, especially balls. BUT once he sees sheep there is no toy or ball in the world he cares about. I really think it depends on the dog.

 

Jennifer

[juliepoudrier]

The whole playing thing for working dogs has been discussed here before and it seems that whether or not you do so depends on you and the dog. My best working dog is also ball obsessed (for lack of a better term)--She loves, loves, loves to play fetch, as do most of my other dogs. But if there's even the glimmer of a chance that we've got work to do with the stock, the ball (and anything else, even raw meaty bones) is forgotten, and she's right with me heading to the gate. My other fetching dogs are the same--stock work comes above all else. I personally believe that a dog who prefers a ball over stock work lacks the necessary work ethic, and unfortunately this is often the case when dogs are bred for things other than strictly working ability (i.e., conformation bred). I'd be curious to know if your trainer bred from that dog, because I would think he wouldn't be a candidate for breeding if he would put balls, etc., ahead of stock work.

 

So my answer is that I would play with her if I saw fit. I'm assuming your presenting the ball didn't take her mind off the stock? You can just keep an eye on things and if you think the ball playing is a problem, stop it. But I know many good handlers with awesome working dogs who also play fetch, with no disastrous results to their work.

 

She isn't sure, but she thinks there were problems in Molly's father's line as well. Although the grandmother trailed well, it didn't come through in the breeding. She thinks there may also have been problems with the grandsire that resulted in him being removed from breeding later (he has very few litters in the database).

 

It sounds like she has a lot of conjecture and no real data. When she says problems, does she mean health problems? If she means that the granddam was a good trial dog but the sire (her son) was not and so the abilities of the dam did not show in the son, that doesn't necessarily mean the next generation won't be good workers. Many an old timer will tell you to look to the grandparents if you want to speculate on what you're likely to get from a particular cross. That's just one belief, though, but it is true that sometimes dogs who are not themselves good trial dogs are still good *producers* of working/trial dogs. At any rate, if health issues is the concern, then you can look at what those issues were and keep an eye out for them with Molly (for example, you could have her hips evaluated if HD is a concern). If working ability is the concern, only time will tell, and since you didn't get Molly expressly for the purpose of working stock, I don't think it will matter in the long run if she turns out not to be a world beater, right?

 

J.

[Laurae]

Julie, of course, provided a very informative response. I'll just add that Taz is another ball-obsessed dog off stock who wouldn't notice 20 neon pink balls dropping from the sky if he were working. I wouldn't worry about it unless you notice Molly is looking for the ball while she is working stock.

[bexie]

It sounds like she has a lot of conjecture and no real data. When she says problems, does she mean health problems? If she means that the granddam was a good trial dog but the sire (her son) was not and so the abilities of the dam did not show in the son, that doesn't necessarily mean the next generation won't be good workers. Many an old timer will tell you to look to the grandparents if you want to speculate on what you're likely to get from a particular cross. That's just one belief, though, but it is true that sometimes dogs who are not themselves good trial dogs are still good *producers* of working/trial dogs. At any rate, if health issues is the concern, then you can look at what those issues were and keep an eye out for them with Molly (for example, you could have her hips evaluated if HD is a concern). If working ability is the concern, only time will tell, and since you didn't get Molly expressly for the purpose of working stock, I don't think it will matter in the long run if she turns out not to be a world beater, right?

 

More like a nagging memory of some problems with health issues with the grandsire. Are there any sorts of muscle diseases in BCs? It didn't sounds like hips. I will do some research before taking anything too seriously and she definitely was clear when she said it that she wasn't sure. With the dam, it was pretty much all the offspring that failed, as far as she can remember, but oddly all but that one litter are with one sire. I'd think that if offspring weren't showing promise they'd have tried another sire to see if the match was bad. The litter Molly's father is from is the only litter with Jill and this sire and the only litter for this sire.

 

The really annoying thing is that Molly's mother has the D status hips but that doesn't mean Molly does. It's in the papers but I hadn't noticed it before. Molly shows no signs of discomfort, but she's a BC so I know that doesn't mean much. It's something to be aware of, especially if she ever has problems.

 

We don't care if she's a world beater. We don't have huge trialing plans. A nice worker, preferably on cattle, is what we hoped for. Nothing spectacular, but a chore dog or so. Something that could help us move stock for the neighbor. Maybe work together with us on horseback. That was the big dream but not a huge expectation. We like for our animals to be capable of doing what they're bred for but on a hobby level... if that makes sense. In any case, she's got a home. Even if all she can learn is to be obedient enough to be a well-adjusted family dog, we'll be happy. We'd like to be able to trust her loose in the yard and to take her along on rides when it isn't tourist season (when she must be leashed), but we'll cope even if that doesn't happen.

[bexie]

Oh, forgot to say, the ball-obsessed dog was a rescue and I don't think she breeds from him. She took him in because other people had trouble keeping him. He doesn't like other dogs and is terrified of male dogs. She's got him to the point of tolerating.