Stopping in the middle of an outrun

[Laurae]

Taz is a three-year-old, naturally fast, tight-running, slicy-flanking, pressure-sensitive dog.

He can be spectacular, when he is thinking and feeling his sheep, but he can also be pushy and run over novice me. I went to a clinic a couple of weeks ago and we worked on stopping, pace, and slicing. He did terrific and I decided to get serious about enforcing everything I asked for. He has run very well for me since then, but today we had a bit of a backslide. I sent him on an outrun where the sheep were sort of near the back fence of the pasture (not sure what I was thinking, except I guess that I wasn't). He ran nice and fast and checked in with the sheep and cast out to adjust his trajectory--all beautifully. But he started to come in just a teeny bit flat, so I told him to lie him down. I wish I'd realized he was probably that little bit flat because the fence was right there, but I didn't. He didn't want to take it, so I stopped everything and went up to him and generally made a big deal about how he needs to lie down when I ask him to. All fine so far. But then for the rest of the time we were out, no matter how much I shortened up the outrun, he was very hesitant. He didn't want to go when I sent him (he'd take a step or two, then stop), or he'd go to maybe 8 or 9 o'clock and then stop and look back at me. He seemed confused about what I wanted, like he was second-guessing everything. He has never really done this before. Should I be worried? What should I do to help him when this happens?

[Sue R]

Novice Alert! When Celt was younger, my trainer at that time was adamant about having him lie down at the top and so was having me run up the field shouting at him if he did not. My naturally nicely outrunning dog began to stop partway on his outrun, which had never, ever been an issue with him. I think he did not understand what I was correcting for as the timing of the correction did not make it obvious what he had "done wrong". So, he was anxious and worried about a correction coming that he couldn't/didn't understand, and so hesitated and stopped on the outrun.

 

I (amazingly) realized what his problem was and, as soon as I stopped using that particular technique, he resumed doing his nice outruns.

 

Your Taz sounds a bit like my Celt, and I would have predicted he would do the same as Taz in that situation with the fence putting pressure on the dog. We would both have probably made the same mistake, and running up and getting after Taz when he was experiencing a lot of pressure already has possibly made him anxious, just like would happen to Celt. When Celt gets anxious, he either gets very hesitant or dives and slices.

 

I would try to do some shorter outruns that do not have the sheep so near the fence, so that Taz can regain his confidence in his outrun. Also, I would try doing some close-up work near a fenceline, maybe taking Taz by the collar to lead him between the sheep and the fence a few times so he realizes that he can do it.

 

Until he becomes more comfortable and confident going between the sheep and the fence on an outrun, I would keep it low-pressure and with lots of support and encouragement from you.

 

I would not have ventured an opinion on this except a lot of what you are describing is similar to issues that I've had (and sometimes still have) with Celt, and so similar problems have been on my mind. I see Robin is reading this and hope she chimes in - she gives good advice. Mine is probably worth less than you are paying for it!

 

Once again, I fear I am ruining my dog

 

I have been the largest part of the ruination of mine but, thankfully, he forgives me for it and tries his best for me, even though I don't believe he will ever trust me enough to take my direction consistently.

 

Best wishes!

[Laurae]

Thanks Sue! I don't know that I would call Taz a "naturally nicely outrunning dog," as he is so pressure-sensitive and worried about losing his sheep that he was tight and slicy for a long time before beginning to understand that he doesn't need to be so physically close to retain control of his sheep. He is also not afraid at all to go between the fence and the sheep, but he does generally get tighter and faster when he feels the pressure of the confines of a fence. He is not a dog who lacks confidence, and that is why this is weird (and worrisome). He did have a very bad experience with a specific clinician about eight months ago, which resulted in a severe loss of confidence, but that was very temporary and hasn't been an issue since.

 

Come to think of it, however, I believe that loss of confidence was a direct result of him receiving a fairly strict correction for a reason I am sure he did not understand. Perhaps, as with your Celt, this is his reaction when he gets corrected for something he doesn't understand. Hmmm.

[Sue R]

Perhaps, as with your Celt, this is his reaction when he gets corrected for something he doesn't understand. Hmmm.

 

Well, Laura, my Celt is sensitive and my corrections are erratic and ill-timed at best, and so I am sure I am the source of a great deal of his problems if not the bulk of his problems.

 

Celt is both pressure-sensitive and very anxious about losing his stock. He sometimes dives and slices and often I find him racing to the heads when that's not what is needed because "Mom, they're getting away!" which makes trying to learn to drive particularly exasperating.

 

Celt is like Taz in the pressure-sensitivity around fences - moving towards a fence or any barrier that provides pressure (like the panels that comprise our working/feeding area) causes him added anxiety and he often winds up flying off the handle and doing something counterproductive (like racing around the other side and preventing them from moving right into where I want them). The smaller the area I work him, the more anxious he is, whether it's an arena or just near a fence or corner. I look for opportunities to work in those places, as long as I can give him the support he needs to build his confidence. Celt and I both have a great deal of bad habits to overcome, and we won't be successful until I am able to conquer mine consistently.

 

The more I hear from competent and skillful trainers/handlers, the more I realize that it is my lack of understanding and my mistakes that are confusing my dog and resulting in a lot of problems for a naturally very sensitive and anxious partner. For an animal that wants to be a partner, wants to please, and wants to be successful, being corrected and not understanding why must be very difficult and erosive of confidence if it happens too often.

[kelpiegirl]

I think you should not worry, but learn from this. He is sensitive to correction, and pressure. So, when you are working on things, look at the big picture, and see where he may have trouble, and try and work around that- unless you can help him. Recently, I was working Lucy, and she got a bit tight at the top- not the lift, but toward the top of the O. Anyway, I downed her, and made several steps to the left (I had sent her away), and then sent her again. She corrected beautifully, and wasn't concerned. Sometimes we focus too much on one thing, and we need to look at the big picture. None of us have perfect dogs. If it becomes just about that to fix, or this to fix, take a break and work on something else entirely. Taz will get it.

I say all this, because I am the queen of circle thinking- and the miles on my car prove it. Listen- being out there, working your dog, becoming a cohesive team- regardless of the technical merits, is more important than having a high technical ability! Put it in perspective- hey I feel like I should be telling MYSELF that!

[Laurae]

Both of you are right, of course. I think that maybe Taz has never been particularly sensitive to correction from me before--which was not a good thing. I have been working really hard at getting him to respect me more out there, and maybe this is happening now because he is finally starting to. Ultimately, it's better to undergo little setbacks if it means he is thinking/worried about what I want him to do (as opposed to his previous MO of apparently not worrying at all about what I wanted him to do ).

 

But beyond shortening up the outruns, is there anything I can do to help him when this happens? Or, Julie, are you saying I should just start working on something else entirely in the meantime?

 

Thanks for helping me think through this, guys. I've only recently gotten brave enough to work Taz and Craig by myself. For the reasons you've outlined, Sue, I have really been afraid to work my dogs without the safety of a more experienced person overseeing us. However, I think working this way has really limited our progress as a team, as I have been only too happy to hand over the reins to someone else when I've gotten in trouble. Maybe this is part of the reason Taz hasn't respected me. Anyway, I am now working both of my dogs myself whenever I can, so I want to try to not do too much damage to my dogs along the way

[kelpiegirl]

I think with shortening the o/r's, and doing other things, the focus will be off the concerns in his head, and you can then gradually lengthen them. Also, when you ask for a flank be happy, and calm, and if he lies down don't get upset. Walk up to him, and then off the side opposite you send him and ask him- at some point, the sheep will be close enough, he won't be able to take it- and he will have to flank

Jmo

[Pipedream Farm]

Sometimes merely giving him a few days off helps as well. Don't worry too much about it. You'll know how to handle it differently next time.

Renee

[Caroline Reichard]

Hi There,

 

I rarely post in this forum since I'm not an Open handler: as Sue said, my advice is worth what you are paying for it. But I really feel motivated offer a thoughs.

 

You wrote that at your clinic: "we worked on stopping, pace, and slicing. He did terrific and I decided to get serious about enforcing everything I asked for." This sounded like a plan that you came up with based on successful clinic experience; it sounded good. But while picking up your sheep a few weeks later, your dog didn't stop when you asked him to. That's normal; lots of dogs do it. So you made it clear that you meant it, and your dog sulked afterwards. Personally, I don't think that you are out of line to expect your dog to stop, even at a point that he may not want to. And I expect that if he was confused about what stoppng meant, then your clinician would have seen that and pointed it out to you. IMHO, it sounds like he was slowing up after that because the correction got through to him and because he doesn't like being told to stop. Maybe you used a a little more correction than you needed, but with a strong dog that is not the end of the world. You do some work closer in, taking pressure off and being very motivating: he should start speeding up pretty quick. The trick is to take the pressure off after correcting like that: it's easy to leave it partway on, which is like driving with your car with the parking break still enaged.

 

I don't think that you should beat yourself up because you insisted that your dog listen to you, so long as you are able to take the pressure OFF afterwards.

[Laurae]

It never occurred to me that he might be sulking. I thought he was just confused. But, well, you're certainly right in that he understands what I want from him when I ask him to lie down, no matter where he is on the field. One thing the clinician told me is to stop apologizing to my dog and to stop making excuses for him because neither is helping him in the long run.

 

I will take a few days off and see if his attitude changes at all. Thanks everyone!

[juliepoudrier]

Laura,

You could also just encourage him on his outrun by shushing him, starting just before the spot where you know he's likely to slow down. As others have said, he needs to learn to take the correction, but make sure you're not overcorrecting and that you're releasing the pressure the instant he complies. I know someone who's dog was corrected severely at the top for not stopping and that dog has never done a good outrun since, so you do need to be careful, even if you do think it's just sulking in your dog's case. I find the concept of sulkiness a bit difficult to define, and am inclined to believe that a truly sulky dog will sulk over a fair and properly applied correction, whereas some dogs who are just confused by poor timing of corrections or overcorrection are probably unfairly labeled as sulky (in other words, I'd be hesitant to label my own dogs as sulky, but if In expert I trusted told me that was the case, I'd be more inclined to believe it, given that the expert should have expert timing and therefore be correctly fairly where I might not be). JMO of course. If it were me, I'd continue to insist on the down when I asked for it, but I would also encourage the outrun at the same time (with shushing) and make certain that the instant he gave me the down he was allowed right back up to keep working. Even with my difficult-to-down youngsters, I never forced them to hold a down, but instead let them up the instant they complied so they learned that while they *had* to take the down, it wasn't the end of the world as they would be let right back up to keep working. Eventually they will have to take the down and stay down until asked to do something else, but not in the beginning.

 

J.

[Laurae]

Hi Julie,

I hope you aren't someone who minds when people dissect your posts to reply to each little piece of it because...well, there's so much here that I want to address it all (sorry everyone, you've all been so great--please bear with me).

 

Laura,

You could also just encourage him on his outrun by shushing him, starting just before the spot where you know he's likely to slow down.

Okay, I had been trying to shush him along after he'd stopped, and it wasn't working very well. I will try it before (or just as) he reaches the spots where he has been stopping. (I know, I know, timing is everything!)

 

As others have said, he needs to learn to take the correction, but make sure you're not overcorrecting and that you're releasing the pressure the instant he complies.

Yeah, it's that releasing the pressure part that I maybe was not doing. Plus, I am sure I was overcorrecting, but Scott told me that right now I do need to make a big deal out of it if he doesn't listen because I'd let him get away with not stopping when I asked for such a long time. He did say that it was a temporary measure, though. As soon as he does listen to me consistently, I can stop making such a big deal out of things every single time he doesn't do what I ask, but I don't think we've reached that point yet. (I don't think we have...I just hate being such a flippin' novice! You never know if what you're doing is really right!)

 

I know someone who's dog was corrected severely at the top for not stopping and that dog has never done a good outrun since,

Um, yikes, so it seems that it is indeed possible to ruin a dog...!

 

so you do need to be careful, even if you do think it's just sulking in your dog's case. I find the concept of sulkiness a bit difficult to define, and am inclined to believe that a truly sulky dog will sulk over a fair and properly applied correction, whereas some dogs who are just confused by poor timing of corrections or overcorrection are probably unfairly labeled as sulky (in other words, I'd be hesitant to label my own dogs as sulky, but if In expert I trusted told me that was the case, I'd be more inclined to believe it, given that the expert should have expert timing and therefore be correctly fairly where I might not be). JMO of course.

I guess I don't think sulkiness is quite the right word. Maybe it was more of an overreaction to my overcorrection. Taz did seem confused (of course, my timing was probably a bit late, and it was probably an overcorrection for the infraction), but I think it might have been him resizing me up and being not quite sure what was happening. Does that seem plausible? (Am I making excuses again?) Taz had no problems taking any corrections from Scott at all. He also doesn't have any problems taking corrections from any of the several people I usually train with. That bodes well, right?

 

If it were me, I'd continue to insist on the down when I asked for it, but I would also encourage the outrun at the same time (with shushing) and make certain that the instant he gave me the down he was allowed right back up to keep working. Even with my difficult-to-down youngsters, I never forced them to hold a down, but instead let them up the instant they complied so they learned that while they *had* to take the down, it wasn't the end of the world as they would be let right back up to keep working. Eventually they will have to take the down and stay down until asked to do something else, but not in the beginning.

Okay, excellent, I'll do this--thank you so much!

[Shoofly]

how he needs to lie down when I ask him to. All fine so far. But then for the rest of the time we were out, no matter how much I shortened up the outrun, he was very hesitant. He didn't want to go when I sent him (he'd take a step or two, then stop), or he'd go to maybe 8 or 9 o'clock and then stop and look back at me. He seemed confused about what I wanted, like he was second-guessing everything. He has never really done this before. Should I be worried? What should I do to help him when this happens?

 

I'd be tempted to try putting him on a short line and sort of leading him towards the sheep, and the second you feel like he's wanting to go around, you drop the line, back away and shush him on around. Break it down a bit and try to catch and reward any inclination to go around.

 

I think the advice to give it a couple days is good too.

 

He didn't want to take it, so I stopped everything and went up to him and generally made a big deal about how he needs to lie down when I ask him to. All fine so far. But then for the rest of the time we were out, no matter how much I shortened up the outrun, he was very hesitant.

 

My guess is, he took the original stop command as a correction but didn't actually stop, because he knew what you wanted (by virtue of the pattern you'd established at the clinic) and he was trying to give you what you wanted. Then you went out to him and kept after him, even though in his mind he was trying to do what you wanted, so he's confused now - he tried to give you what you wanted but it still wasn't right and he doesn't know how to make you happy, so he's shutting down a bit. I totally agree about "down means down" - it's one of my pet peeves actually. But this might not be the place to fight that battle.

 

I've seen the same thing in other dogs - they learn that "down" in that position really means "you're too tight" and they react to the down by widening the outrun, which is what you're after, after all. I'd tend to let that ignored stop go if the dog was trying to widen, for a dog that's reacting like yours. A more hard headed dog, i might make stop and if i saw the head turning out (pattern trained again), then i let them go. Eventually they learn that if i'm speaking to them on the outrun, chances are i'm wanting them wider.

[Laurae]

Now that's interesting, Robin.

The subtleties of this are killing me.

I was also talking to a friend about this and noted in an aside that the sheep were very heavy, and she pointed out that Taz may not have wanted to lie completely down that one time because he knew it would be more efficient to keep moving with heavy sheep. That perhaps I should not work on enforcing a lie down quite so much when working with heavy sheep. This never occurred to me, and if I thought about it for a while, it still would never have occurred to me. There are just so many variables...

[Shoofly]

I don't know about that line of reasoning. Maybe if the dog was moving the sheep already and you kept asking for stops that kept requiring him to lift over and over, but even then, i'm not sure dogs really think that way.

 

I think basically it's this - he got in trouble at 8 or 9 o' clock so he's thinking maybe he should just avoid that spot to keep you happy, since you seemed so upset at him when he was there before. Figure out how to get him to go through that spot again, tell him he's good or shush him, and he'll decide you got over whatever it was that made you so upset. Voila! But keep in mind that he'll be a little tender about it for awhile.

 

It's really not all that complicated. He touched a hot stove so he doesn't want to do *that* again. Help show him the stove is off and he'll stick his paw up there again soon enough.

[Laurae]

Gee, do you think I have a tendency to overanalyze things?

 

I'll try not to make everything so complicated and we'll see what happens next time...

 

Thanks!

[Shoofly]

That's okay. It's hard sometimes to figure out what's going on in those little doggy heads. The tricky part is figuring out how to show them what we want and knowing we're getting the right message across.

 

I think you're doing the right thing to make him stop when he's told. I'd just pick a different spot to work on it until it's solid, like fetching or wearing or penning or sorting at gates, something where it's a little more black and white. You were trying to work on 1 problem (outrun) and got caught up in a 2nd one (stopping) so your messages got mixed up.

[Pipedream Farm]

Maybe if the dog was moving the sheep already and you kept asking for stops that kept requiring him to lift over and over, but even then, i'm not sure dogs really think that way.

 

 

I believe dogs without much power/confidence can think this way; they resist slowing or stopping to avoid the confrontation of having to lift heavy sheep.

 

Mark

[Laurae]

Actually, at least with regard to Taz, the not stopping for heavy sheep idea was probably just things getting muddled up in my mind. I had also been talking to my friend about working my other dog Craig that day on driving, and I felt like he was getting frustrated with me asking him to lie down all the time. She may have said that enforcing the lie down with Craig while driving heavy sheep was not such a good idea...

Sorry; I think I am getting overloaded!

[Shoofly]

I don't think i was very clear - yeah, i agree Mark. That's what i meant by asking for stops (and lifts) over and over on sheep that are already (stop and go) moving. I'm just not sure the thought process is the same when the dog is going around on an outrun and hasn't done the initial lift yet. But maybe.

[Pipedream Farm]

Robin,

 

More than likely, this stopping on the outrun is due to confusion or worry about an expected correction at the top.

 

Laurae,

 

Work on the stop when you won't have to work on anything else (I like to do it during clock-work, wearing, fetching). Make sure the stop is understood and taken with one command when given verbally AND (if you've started) or by whistle. Make sure this is understood so that when you need to use it for other training issues there is no confusion.

 

Mark

[Sue R]

More than likely, this stopping on the outrun is due to confusion or worry about an expected correction at the top.

 

This is precisely what I think was the problem with Celt a couple of years ago when he began stopping on the outrun, which is so unlike him.

[Laurae]

Laurae,

Work on the stop when you won't have to work on anything else (I like to do it during clock-work, wearing, fetching). Make sure the stop is understood and taken with one command when given verbally AND (if you've started) or by whistle. Make sure this is understood so that when you need to use it for other training issues there is no confusion.

Clock-work? What's that?

Thanks so much everyone, I'm excited to actually have an idea of what is going on and what to do about this...

[Sue R]

I think clock-work is when you are flanking the dog either or both ways around the stock and stopping it at different points (like 12, 3, 6 o'clock as if the circle around the sheep is the face of a clock). It is an awfully good exercise, which I need to do more of.