Interactions with individuals

[kelpiegirl]

Those of you who know this stuff- can you decipher for me, if you have a confident, brave dog, what sort of behaviour do you see when you say, push a group of sheep against a fence, and the sheep decide to stare your dog down, and then proceed to stomp/put head down. I am not condoning this happening, but what are the things you would look for in your dog in response to this?

 

Thanks

[Pearse]

Those of you who know this stuff- can you decipher for me, if you have a confident, brave dog, what sort of behaviour do you see when you say, push a group of sheep against a fence, and the sheep decide to stare your dog down, and then proceed to stomp/put head down. I am not condoning this happening, but what are the things you would look for in your dog in response to this?

 

Thanks

 

 

If the sheep are against the fence, I'd expect the dog to stop far enough off the sheep that they aren't stressing and stomping.

 

If I wanted the sheep off the fence, I'd expect the dog to flank around behind them and take them off the fence. If the sheep turned to the dog, I'd want the dog to give them the chance to turn back and move off by backing the pressure off a bit, but if they wouldn't turn, I'd expect the dog to move them by walking straight on and putting pressure on them. If a sheep charged the dog, I'd expect a grip and then a stop to allow the sheep to think better of it and move off.

 

I wouldn't ask a young dog to do any of this without help. I'd go and move the sheep off the fence for a young dog until I'm sure he/she can handle the pressure and not get stuck or beaten. Confidence builds slowly but it doesn't take too many opportunities before sheep learn that nothing really bad will happen if they ignore a young dog (especially dog broke sheep) and that can set the confidence building back. Once the dog knows that she/he can move the sheep no matter what, it's no longer an issue but for many dogs that's not an overnight discovery (some have it out of the box, others have it and lose it from being discouraged from gripping young and need to relearn "good grip - bad grip"). In my humble opinion.

 

Pearse

[juliepoudrier]

I would expect my dog to hold its position (i.e., not turn away in response to the stomping), but the dog might turn its head to take pressure off the sheep (often such a small action will defuse the situation and the sheep will turn away). If I ask the dog to continue to walk in, I expect her to do so, right up to nose to nose with the sheep that's challenging her. If I sheep tries to butt her, then I expect her to grab it on the head and then let go and give the sheep another chance to turn. In a practical sense at home if I have pushed the sheep up into a corner so I can work on them and she's pushing in too much and upsetting the sheep, I have a "get back" command, which basically means "back off a bit," (without turning tail) but does not mean for her to leave--just to give the sheep a bit more room.

 

Is that what you were asking?

 

ETA: Pearse has posted some good comments regarding young dogs, especially.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Pearse

That first paragraph had so much good information, I have to re-read it. I don't know why my dog wants to move in on them. Why would she want to? She will down, settle, but then, something gets her up and moving right into them. That's when they stomp- expected. I don't want her automatically flanking off on their pressure- but I also don't want her creating a mess. I think I will just work on keeping her down, and off, until I need to push them somewhere-duh! I am going to write more in a bit, but, really, thanks, this is very good!!!!!!

 

 

If the sheep are against the fence, I'd expect the dog to stop far enough off the sheep that they aren't stressing and stomping.

 

If I wanted the sheep off the fence, I'd expect the dog to flank around behind them and take them off the fence. If the sheep turned to the dog, I'd want the dog to give them the chance to turn back and move off by backing the pressure off a bit, but if they wouldn't turn, I'd expect the dog to move them by walking straight on and putting pressure on them. If a sheep charged the dog, I'd expect a grip and then a stop to allow the sheep to think better of it and move off.

 

I wouldn't ask a young dog to do any of this without help. I'd go and move the sheep off the fence for a young dog until I'm sure he/she can handle the pressure and not get stuck or beaten. Confidence builds slowly but it doesn't take too many opportunities before sheep learn that nothing really bad will happen if they ignore a young dog (especially dog broke sheep) and that can set the confidence building back. Once the dog knows that she/he can move the sheep no matter what, it's no longer an issue but for many dogs that's not an overnight discovery (some have it out of the box, others have it and lose it from being discouraged from gripping young and need to relearn "good grip - bad grip"). In my humble opinion.

 

Pearse

[Pearse]

Pearse

That first paragraph had so much good information, I have to re-read it. I don't know why my dog wants to move in on them. Why would she want to? She will down, settle, but then, something gets her up and moving right into them. That's when they stomp- expected. I don't want her automatically flanking off on their pressure- but I also don't want her creating a mess. I think I will just work on keeping her down, and off, until I need to push them somewhere-duh! I am going to write more in a bit, but, really, thanks, this is very good!!!!!!

 

I don't know but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the dog's default mode is to move/fetch sheep. Perhaps the dog assumes that it ought to be doing something with these sheep other than standing staring at them. Some dogs don't feel comfortable holding the edge of the pressure "bubble" for long. As with most things, you can teach a dog to relax while holding sheep but like most things not all dogs take to it, and most don't take to it naturally.

 

Some people would say that having a dog do this too much is not a good thing. I'd tend to agree but sometimes you need the dog to hold the sheep and not push on them so you teach it like you teach most things, a little at a time.

 

Pearse

[kelpiegirl]

Yep, I think you guessed it Pearse! If I had to fault her it would be her need to do something all the time with the sheep. We were quite close to the sheep, and it was clearly in HER bubble. It was my fault, I wasn't paying attention.

 

Oh, and here is another thing- first, let me preface this with- she is in heat, and if dogs could say "hee hee hee, you can't make me!" that is what she would be saying- she was like Sandra Dee yesterday! I mean, at the end of her outrun, before the lift she jumped into the water tank for a few secs, I said "um, HELLOOOO!:, she blithely jumped out and walked up (nicely rejuvenated) on her sheep.

 

Anyway, we worked on sending her to fetch sheep off of fences- that is, instead of her taking the wide open side away from the fence, I wanted her to go along down it. She did pretty well, after she realized I needed her to go THAT way. Here is the interesting thing. We had the sheep in a corner. I sent her away, she went down, and the sheep turned, but did not start to move- tight for all I guess. I then gave her a down, and then an away- this gave the sheep room, and she DID! She took her flank from FAR away, and gave them room to move, and up they came to me. This is her first ever experience with pulling out of corners. I never thought she would take a flank- she usually reverts to holding if worried. She is not the most hard coming in dog- in certain circumstances, but I thought this showed great team work on our part- and hopefully really upped her trust in me not screwing things up!