Raw food and pups?

[stockdogranch]

Ok, is there anyone out there with experience with feeding pups raw? I mean, weaning pups. I feed a combination of raw and Canidae, but with the new Canidae scare, I'm afraid of it, now, too. Anyway, I've always given pups rice cereal for babies as their first solid food, while they are still nursing, and then slowly mixed in soaked kibble over the next few weeks until they are on solid kibble, and then, as they get a bit older, started giving them raw. So, does anyone have suggestions on what to give instead of the soaked kibble? Ground raw? This is isn't really an issue just yet, but I am planning on a litter this winter,

Thanks!

Anna

[MrSnappy]

I raised Wick's litter onto raw. I weaned them first on the rice cereal, and then started adding ground meat (no bone), then started adding bone-in ground and then started offering small small chunks of meat and bone. By the time they were 7 weeks, they were eating wings with gusto. They did really, really well.

 

RDM

[stockdogranch]

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for!

Anna

[SoloRiver]

Is a commercial raw an option? Primal and Nature's Variety both have frozen ground raw diets that are "nutritionally complete" and come in small nugget sizes that look perfect for pups. My dogs don't care that much for the Primal diet (lots of veggies) but really like Nature's Variety.

[Nancy Bovee]

I have not weaned puppies (no litters) but I have started 2 pups on raw. I just started and they did fine.

 

I'm wondering why start puppies on rice? I didn't even start my human babies on rice. I'm curious as to how this rice thing got started....

 

Puppies naturally start eating regurgitated meat, so I would try to mimic that (by grinding or blending, not by regurgitating! ;-) Or just good quality canned food.

 

When I was young we used to start feeding puppies on baking pans (so the food was shallow and cleanup was easier than bowls).

 

Nancy Bovee

 

Ok, is there anyone out there with experience with feeding pups raw? I mean, weaning pups. I feed a combination of raw and Canidae, but with the new Canidae scare, I'm afraid of it, now, too. Anyway, I've always given pups rice cereal for babies as their first solid food, while they are still nursing, and then slowly mixed in soaked kibble over the next few weeks until they are on solid kibble, and then, as they get a bit older, started giving them raw. So, does anyone have suggestions on what to give instead of the soaked kibble? Ground raw? This is isn't really an issue just yet, but I am planning on a litter this winter,

Thanks!

Anna

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I started all my pups on wings, smooshed up with a hammer a bit to make things easier. Every pup I brought home has also gotten, the first week, either a rabbit or a bird complete with, well, everything. Later they'll be eating crazy stuff like deer legs with skin and I don't want to be doing odd things to convince them to do that.

 

I've never weaned a litter on raw since I've never actually whelped a litter, but I know many who have and the pups do just fine. I think if I did it I'd have them to the vet every week just to check bloodwork and growth - but I'm a bit crazy that way.

 

My raw fed pups are in general more compact than their littermates, though I've had two now that were right in the middle - one after starting out the runt. I think Jen would have been ridiculously small no matter what I fed her. They do grow at a nice even rate and I have little to no problems with chewing, and none with baby teeth that don't come out properly, etc, even when they have littermates with these issues.

 

The down sides are that you do have to do some serious research - feeding pups properly can't be done as casually as keeping an adult dog healthy. And it takes a ton of raw meaty bones, unless you are lucky enough to get an "easy keeper" - which can get expensive since variety is a huge part of doing it right - you can't get away with chicken quarters day after day.

 

Ted has been my first easy keeper pup on raw and it's been delightful. I would have hated to have had the raising of Cord on raw - he eats a couple pounds of RMBs every day in addition to about 700 calories of kibble, a bit of homeade stew, and a smidge of canned fish. Most pups eat quite a bit more than what they end up eating as adults. For Cord I would have had to have a freezer just for him!

[juliepoudrier]

Is a commercial raw an option? Primal and Nature's Variety both have frozen ground raw diets that are "nutritionally complete" and come in small nugget sizes that look perfect for pups. My dogs don't care that much for the Primal diet (lots of veggies) but really like Nature's Variety.

My one super picky eater just loves the Nature's Variety medallions, and so they have become something of a staple in her diet. Of course she also really likes Braunschweiger (not raw as far as I know), so I suppose there's no accounting for taste....

(I should also mention that I tried her on a raw diet when she was a pup because of the not-wanting-to-eat issue, and she ate raw for maybe a couple of days and then started turning her nose up at that too, so the fact that she *gobbles* the Nature's Variety commercial raw diet is something of a ringing endorsement from her!)

 

J.

[Lenajo]

We wean our pups on pureed skinned chicken necks and goats milk, then progress to them gnawing on chicken backs (with the major fat removed), lamb ribs, turkey necks, and ground meat mixed with milk and vegetable puree. They eat beef (frozen hard at least 24 hours first), lamb, chicken, turkey, and goat. They get to gnaw on all sorts of legs bones that are too hard to be considered food (beyond the meat that's on it) but it's great for their teeth and jaw development

 

I find pups easy to feed raw and they do well on it - adolescents however, especially working ones are hard to keep weight on. And like Rebecca I've found many of the adults need a tremedous amount of food as well.

 

Our pups aren't allowed whole chicken necks after they understand they are food because they are such a choking hazard. Not worth the risk.

 

Commercial raw - there are severel good ones, but I don't like the lack of variety and often the ground bones one only use soft, non-weight bearing bones (for example, Oma's pride lamb bone mix is lamb ribs only, and the chicken and lamb mixes appear to be quite high in fat - I suspect the chicken is not skinned as you would if you made it yourself)). Nothing wrong with fat or ribs, Omas Pride (its a good food!)...just the lack of variety and balance.

 

So if I used commercial, I would try to supplement it a bit with greater variety of bones and vegetables.

[MrSnappy]

My raw fed pups are in general more compact than their littermates, though I've had two now that were right in the middle - one after starting out the runt. I think Jen would have been ridiculously small no matter what I fed her. They do grow at a nice even rate and I have little to no problems with chewing, and none with baby teeth that don't come out properly, etc, even when they have littermates with these issues.

 

I am really not sure that they are "compact" because of the raw. I think a lot of it has to do with genetics. Of Wick's litter, we had three reasonably sized females and a MASSIVE male. He is huge. I can't believe he came out of Wick. As a wee pup he was twice the size of the bitch puppies. And this is a litter where two were stillborn and 5 of the pups died from fading puppy (long before raw - or any solids at all - was introduced, I should add).

 

I weaned the pups first onto rice because it's really bland. Wick was not regurgitating anything for her puppies (thank doG) so whether that's something that happens in wild dogs or not is irrelevant, IMO. They went from milk to rice pablum, to rice pablum and raw meat. A nice bland transition.

 

Raising the pups on raw was a cleaning experience that was truly joyous. It was SO easy to clean up after them and because they drank less water, they also peed less. If I were to ever raise another litter (NEVER AGAIN) I'd do the same (but I'm never doing it again)(EVER)(Did I mention I raised that litter in my studio apartment???)

 

RDM

[Lenajo]

I don't believe you change genetics with food, i.e. small or large puppies, but I do believe the raw fed pups for the most part grow steadier, have less puppy fat, and because of both of those are more coordinated, earlier. I also believe that they are smarter than pups who are fed very low quality food (of whatever type). It's been proven in childen that better diet (more eha and dha) helps brain development.

 

I've also seen personally that with no grain feeding the pups don't need help dealing with endemic issues to the area like coccidea immunity. That was very interesting to me since I hate use sulfa drugs.

 

RDM - at the W Jean Dodds conference I was at we discussed fading puppy and they are now believing it may be something similar to rh incomptability in people. That is the pups that are a different blood type than the dam, the moment that milk hits their system they have an autoimmunne response and "fade" away. This issues is becoming a greater problem in purebred populations because of the closer genetics that mixed breeds. If you get a "rare" type dam that is, her only pups that will live are the same "rare" type...and on it goes.

[MrSnappy]

RDM - at the W Jean Dodds conference I was at we discussed fading puppy and they are now believing it may be something similar to rh incomptability in people. That is the pups that are a different blood type than the dam, the moment that milk hits their system they have an autoimmunne response and "fade" away.

 

That's really interesting. I don't know what was going on with the Wick puppies, but it was truly shattering. I kept going from vet to vet to vet and testing this and injecting that, and they just kept dying. It was heartbreaking and very expensive.

 

RDM

[stockdogranch]

Thanks for all the great ideas, everyone! All of mine have now been on raw for quite a while, but the new thing will be weaning pups onto it. I'll be sure to update everyone as we go through the process. We're also doing another new thing this time: surgical AI, as the male is too far away to get to at the drop of a hat (or a rise in progesterone level, as the case may be)

Anna

[mbernard2424]

Ok, is there anyone out there with experience with feeding pups raw? I mean, weaning pups. I feed a combination of raw and Canidae, but with the new Canidae scare, I'm afraid of it, now, too. Anyway, I've always given pups rice cereal for babies as their first solid food, while they are still nursing, and then slowly mixed in soaked kibble over the next few weeks until they are on solid kibble, and then, as they get a bit older, started giving them raw. So, does anyone have suggestions on what to give instead of the soaked kibble? Ground raw? This is isn't really an issue just yet, but I am planning on a litter this winter,

Thanks!

Anna

 

Anna,

 

I just weaned my new litter straight on to raw. I wanted to hold off on weaning them until they were four to four and a half weeks old, but at a couple of days shy of four weeks old, they were literally pulling meat out of their mother's mouth. I started them on ground rabbit or chicken and now, at five weeks old, they are starting to consume chunks of meat. They also pull meat off large bones. They are doing absolutely, incredibly awesome! Clean up in their "play pen" is minimal. When you pick them up, you are surprised at how heavy they are.

[mbernard2424]

I thought I'd share these images taken last night. Baby wolves in action. This carcass kept them busy for hours!

 

http://www.pbase.com/mbernard2424/puppies_...;view=slideshow

[Wendy V]

It has been said before, but with my first time experience, the pups were weaned onto ground boned-in chicken mixed with raw goat's milk (not to much, as it is very rich). By 6-7 weeks they were able to handle whole chicken pieces without issue. During adolesence, my young male required 3X the amount of food as a raw-fed adult. Now, at 2.5 yo, he requires only 1.5X the food as the others. I used chicken primarily, along with some organ meats, but moved onto other red meats sources as he grew. The process was pretty uneventful. He has never been fed grains or vegetables. He looks fantastic.