Chasing - Help!

[PaddyPaws]

I'm fairly new to this, and training BC's in general. I had a BC as a child, but wasn't responsible for training it. I'm not totally responsible for this one, as it is my mum's dog, but I'm looking after it while shes on holiday next week. Anyway, due to lack of transport, my mums BC x springer will be walked in my local park for the week. Heres where the problem begins

 

She has recently started chasing anything that she sees as a potential threat. It is not herding behaviour, its more of a confidence issue. She chases kids, joggers, bikes, anything, given half the chance, and barks a lot as if to say "Go away, I'm scared of you!" Of course, the cyclist goes away, the kids go away, the joggers run away and hey presto, her chasing and barking has worked.

 

Anyway, I intend to try and get her out of this habit. I am armed with a 10 metre line, a multitude of squeaky toys, yummy treats and a clicker. She can be still get a reasonable amount of exercise on the line playing fetch etc. and the intention is that she will be called back while chasing (using treats and toys as an extra incentive) and then get these as a reward when she does so.

 

What I want to know, is this - Is there anything I am over looking? I've only ever "properly" trained my JR (who has also just decided that this chasing game is great fun).

 

Any hints and tips would be gratefully received.

 

Many thanks,

Amanda, Paddy (JR) and Molly (BC x springer)

 

Oh, by the way - both dogs usually have brilliant recalls and general all round good obedience!

[Alaska]

This can be a tough problem. Take it seriously now, because it will only get harder to solve later.

 

Having two dogs more than doubles the problem, as they will reinforce each other when chasing and pay less attention to what YOU think they ought to do than if it was just you with the one dog.

 

First step is to prevent the behavior from happening. That way it is not getting reinforced (as you described). Any time there is a possibility of it happening, the dog needs to be on a leash.

 

There are two main ways to train the dog out of a behavior like this. One is to punish the heck out of them for even thinking about it. The other is to train the dog to perform an incompatible behavior when they get the urge to chase, usually something like "look at me" or "sit down". You can find proponents of both approaches, and the choice depends on a variety of things (e.g. you, the dog, how long it's been going on, how old the dog is, the seriousness of the problem or consequences, the motivation for the behavior,etc.)

 

At the same time, you should be thinking about how to make the dog less fearful. Your behavior should make the dog believe that you will protect her, so she does not feel she must be constantly defending herself from all these scary things. Act like a leader, do not put the dog in scary situations, institute a gradual program of desensitization and/or counter-conditioning for the things that scare her, etc.

 

Many people say "my dog has a brilliant recall" when what they really mean is "my dog has a brilliant recall except in certain situations." One can always do more recall training around gradually more enticing distractions. Does the dog's recall work when the bike is stationary? Person walking a bike? Bike moving very slowly? Bike at normal speed? Bike racing past? Pack of bikes? Bike at a great distance? Bike a little closer? Bike whipping right past you? Keep improving the recall in the face of tougher distractions -- don't ever consider that training "completed".

 

In your situation, I would recommend two concurrent strategies:

 

1. Only take one dog out at a time, and have it on a leash.

 

2. Train the dog to perform a behavior incompatible with chasing. Start with the distraction (bike, whatever) at a great distance and train the dog to sit and watch you or the bike when she spots it. Reward this behavior. Gradually have the bike come closer, but make sure not to raise the criterion too quickly. The dog should be succeeding at each step. Not only will the dog be getting rewarded for the correct behavior, but the dog will also learn that bikes do not harm her if she just sits and watches them. This is a double bonus.

 

Bear in mind that this kind of "intellectual exercise" is nearly as tiring for the dog as a good game of fetch, so you don't need to be too concerned that the dog won't get enough exercise on this program. If you still need a way to get her more physical exercise, go to the park very early or very late when you will have the place to yourself and she can play fetch without kids/bikes/etc zooming past every few minutes.

[PaddyPaws]

It's only recently become a problem - before she would run in the general direction but return when called.

 

We are working on the confidence issue, and she is much much better - its just this new behaviour she has developed

 

Its not so much the situation (stationary bike, distance etc) it seems to depend more on her mood and what she is doing at the time. Sometimes people can ride past on bikes and she sees them, but doesnt bat an eyelid. Other times, they can be a dot on the horizon, and shes gone. There seems to be no logical pattern to it at all.

 

You say only take one dog out at a time, on a lead - I don't think taking my JR at the same time is a real problem - he only chases when she chases but he returns when called. If she isnt chasing, he just wanders around minding his own business.

 

When training within the situations - it may be difficult, as I'd be stood in a field, with foot paths all around, leading from four different directions, so I may not alway see a bike or whatever approaching, so when i see it coming i cannot always call her to me before she sees it - I normally do this, but sometimes she sees it before I do. Thats where the line comes in - do I let her attempt to chase before calling her back, or call her back before that stage? Thats where I'm slightly unsure. What do I do when she sees whatever it is and wants to chase, and is already locked on to it?

 

I have gone through this with my JR who used to chase cars when on the lead and walking down a road. I sat on the roundabout by my house for hours with him (and also on the side of the motorway when the car broke down!) and desensitised him that way. Bikes would be slightly more difficult.

 

I am already intending to go 1st thing in the morning and late at night for physical exercise, as well as the other training we do to keep her mind busy!

 

I really appreciate you giving your time to give such a lengthy reply! Any suggestions you have to my questions here would also be gratefully received!

[Tassie]

Amanda, I'd say you've got a good plan going. My little (well not so little) girl is a wannabe car-chaser - certain tyre/engine noises attract her. Obviously I have her on leash when we're walking along a road, but she can back out of her collar in a heartbeat, so I've been trying the incompatible behaviour/classically conditioned thing that Alaska was talking about. We're walking on "hear car coming, look at mom, get treat" every single time. Although I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to trust her off leash right close to a road. BTW, I treat my non-chasing boy at the same time - don't want him to feel left out.

 

The only thing I'd say about your plan, is to get the 'look' or whatever you're going to ask for BEFORE the chasing starts - preferably while she's just about to think about chasing, if you see what I mean. That means you will have to try to spot the 'stimulus' before she does. And luring would be fine. I probably wouldn't give her the full 10m leash if you're likely to encounter things that will make her chase.

 

When the coast is clear, you could make use of the 10 m leash to reinforce her recalls. Call her, treat her and release again - rinse and repeat.

 

BTW - Hope you're high and dry and have not been badly affected by the flooding - or are you further west?

[PaddyPaws]

I see why you say get her to "look" or whatever I decide to do beforehand, which I can try, and see how we get on. Trouble is, the stimulus can come from all directions at once - not like cars on a road! I'm definitely going to make use of the fact that it is summer holidays so there are hundreds of kids in the park!

 

And no, not flooded here as no rivers! I live on the coast (well Bristol Channel - not much of a coast!) so no flooding luckily!

[Tassie]

Good that you're high and dry.

 

Yes - see your problem about spotting the stimulus. So, I guess I'd just be getting 'look' or whatever fairly frequently as you walk along. The main thing ISTM is to try to prevent her from reinforcing herself by the chasing. If it does start, try interrupting her as quickly as possible - best way I find is with the dog's name said briskly and excitedly - then reward for the look.

 

It'll be interesting to hear how you get on.

[PaddyPaws]

Just got back from walking both dogs together. Big improvement with the long line.

 

Molly the collie was on the 10 metre line - she attempted to run towards a dog (one she knows and often plays with) so I tried calling her back....but to no avail (I have the rope burns to prove it!) but she got to the end of the line, got tangled and did a face splat into the grass - and I think she learnt her lesson!

 

After that, she went and greeted this dog and i called her back...and she returned. I kept her attention until the dog had moved away a fair distance, then let her carry on to do what she wanted...she cautiously but hastily headed towards this dog, but when i called her back, she stopped. With another call, she returned, and this is how the walk continued.

 

Bikes went past and kids ran past along the footpaths but she made no attempt to chase, as she normally would. Even on the way home (on normal lead) 6 or 7 bikes went past and she only made an attempt to chase at one and barked at none.

 

I'm seeing an improvement in her already, so will keep up what I'm doing as it seems to be having some effect. Paddy the JR didn't chase anything either, because Molly didn't although it seems he may be having aggression issues cropping up again.

[Alaska]

Hi Amanda. Sorry it took me a while to get back to this thread. (I see that you've just posted while I was composing this reply. I'll leave it as is, but bear in mind that I hadn't seen your latest post above when I wrote some of it.)

 

Its not so much the situation (stationary bike, distance etc) it seems to depend more on her mood and what she is doing at the time. Sometimes people can ride past on bikes and she sees them, but doesnt bat an eyelid. Other times, they can be a dot on the horizon, and shes gone. There seems to be no logical pattern to it at all.

 

Instead of trying to guess at the logic she's currently using, you are going to make her behavior logical by training her to do a predictable thing (look at you) every time she sees a bike. We can't always figure out why dogs do what they do, but we can train them to do what we want them to do, so that's usually the more productive approach to a problem like this.

 

You say only take one dog out at a time, on a lead - I don't think taking my JR at the same time is a real problem - he only chases when she chases but he returns when called. If she isnt chasing, he just wanders around minding his own business.

 

I hear you, but when he chases along with her, he is reinforcing her behavior. Paddy may not need to be on a lead as long as Molly is, but you do want to avoid the two of them chasing together.

 

When training within the situations - it may be difficult, as I'd be stood in a field, with foot paths all around, leading from four different directions, so I may not alway see a bike or whatever approaching, so when i see it coming i cannot always call her to me before she sees it - I normally do this, but sometimes she sees it before I do.

 

Can you find a fence or hedgerow to stand against so bikes can only come from in front where you can see them? Ideally, you do not want Molly to start chasing at all. You want her response to the stimulus to be to look at you immediately -- this is what blocks her from reflexively kicking over into chase mode. If you can train this, you never have to worry about where the bikes are coming from, since she will tell you (by looking at you when they appear). You are also not dependent on her recall being good enough to stop her in full chase. When dogs get in chase mode, their senses can block other stimuli. Even a dog with a normally good recall literally may not even hear the recall command when they're in full chase.

 

I have gone through this with my JR who used to chase cars when on the lead and walking down a road. I sat on the roundabout by my house for hours with him (and also on the side of the motorway when the car broke down!) and desensitised him that way. Bikes would be slightly more difficult.

 

That was a great idea! Do you have a bike path you could sit near?

 

****

 

[Now in response to your latest post]

 

Long line seems like the trick. Just don't get tempted to quit using it too soon! Making sure the dog never has a chance to practice the behavior you are trying to extinguish is an important part of the training. Each time she gets to engage in a chase, it sets the training back quite a bit.

 

It seems like you're doing everything right here. You haven't mentioned whether you are rewarding Molly each time she comes back to you, but if not, you should be. You want her to think "Wow, I really made a good decision to come back when she called! I'd better do that again next time." Choose whatever reward you like, as long as you're pretty sure it will result in making her think that.

[Tassie]

Hey Amanda - thanks for the progress report - and it sounds like you're making good progress.

 

I totally echo Alaska's advice - reward each and every time she looks to you - you're aiming for a classically conditioned (automatic) response - see/hear bike=look at leader=get goodies. It will also have the effect of making her more aware of you in general - she'll be keeping half an eye on you to see if there's a chance of earning a goodie. So reinforce that behaviour too.

[PaddyPaws]

Yes, she is rewarded every time she comes back. I tried with squeaky toys first to distract the attention from the passing bike (so she plays a short game of fetch while the bike is still near by and moving). I found that she wasn't really responding to the toy as time went on so switched back to food rewards which seem to be working well (she is very food orientated).

 

 

It will also have the effect of making her more aware of you in general - she'll be keeping half an eye on you to see if there's a chance of earning a goodie. So reinforce that behaviour too.

 

I have noticed exactly that. I feel like both dogs have lost a little respect for me lately in terms of my authority over them, hence the aggression cropping back up with my JR. It's probably my fault for letting the discipline slide while I was working last week (I don't work but did a week in a vets so had less time for training). My JR usually has one eye on me at all times as a result of him running off and getting lost for 2 and a half hours almost 3 years ago now. I need to play hide and seek with Molly a bit to get her like this too!

[PaddyPaws]

Just a quick update -

 

We went to the beach last night and no one else around, so let Molly off the lead and recall was fantastic - even my brother (who Molly is very nervous around) was calling her back to him.

 

Took her out this morning to the park and have seen a big improvement. Recall around other dogs was almost flawless and she was taking ess interest in bikes passing as we were walking along the road.

 

Paddy's recall is also better now, and we have had no aggressive incidents!

 

 

Amanda

[ArcticFox]

Hello PaddyPaws.

 

Just wondering how its going regarding chasing, i read this topic with keen interest as my recent intake ( a rescue) has the same bad issues. Again I tend to choose the quite times of the day as he will spot a jogger or bike from seemingly miles away, within seconds so is he.........

 

Thanks

 

Rich