Baby steps

[Laurae]

Inspired by Julie, I'm just starting to ponder what might be involved with getting a few of my own sheep (or, actually, going in with a friend so we can get more and share costs). The easiest way to do it would probably be to buy some sheep and see if we could board them with someone else who already has their own flock. That way, the fencing, shelter, and feed would be taken care of, as well as having someone live on the premises should any sort of emergency come up. It would also be easier to have someone come out and, say, shear because we could time these kinds of maintenance issues with the bigger flock's schedule (though we'd probably get hair sheep). I know costs will vary from region to region, but can anyone talk about what an arrangement like this might cost? Are there any particular drawbacks? Or benefits I haven't thought about yet?

 

I'm way in the early stages of thinking about this, but I'm already pretty excited at the thought. Thanks for any insight!

[Bill Fosher]

You'll probably have better luck getting someone to board a few of their own ewes for you -- keep a few ewes open in exchange for the revenue that would have come from their lambs perhaps plus some nominal management fee?

 

The main thing that would dissuade me from entering such an arrangement would be biosecurity: I do not want unknown sheep entering my flock, or even entering my pastures as an separate flock. But if someone wanted to pay me to hold 15 or 20 open ewes from my own flock and allow them to train dogs on them, I might be talked into it.

 

The advantage to you is that you could probably change sheep pretty easily -- if they were young enough they could be switched back into the breeding string and others could be swapped out for them.

 

To give you a sense of what we're talking about, I spend about $65 per year to feed an open ewe, and I expect to clear about $45 on the lambs that she rears. So just those two items would be about $110 per sheep per year. My other costs -- deworming, vaccination, shearing, labor for feeding a separate group, etc., might add another $40 to $50 per sheep per year. Managing the separate group would be the big ticket item in that category.

[juliepoudrier]

Another thing to consider when going in with someone else or relying on someone else's flock is whether their livestock management/husbandry matches your ideals. Nothing is more frustrating than partnering with someone with whom you don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to how the livestock should be cared for. Been there and it's NOT fun. I agree with Bill that you might have a better chance having someone keep some open ewes from their own flock for you, but you also might find someone willing to house a few training sheep for you as well. I'm actually doing that for a friend of mine, but I knew exactly who the sheep were coming from, and she and I have pretty much the same views on husbandry, *and* she's more than willing to come out and do maintenance work on the *entire* flock when needed, plus I can work my young dogs on the sheep as well (as my ewe flock is not appropriate for starting youngsters). So in our case it has worked to bring in some sheep and "board" them, but many of Bill's concerns were addressed by the fact that I knew the sheep, the original owner of the sheep, had a place to quarantine them for a while, etc., and so wasn't as concerned as I might have been if someone I didn't know came up to me and said, "Hey, can I pay you to keep a few sheep at your place?"

 

J.

[Laurae]

Julie, actually we did have one or two people in mind already, both of whom are friends who treat their sheep well. I admit, though, that I really don't know enough about the particulars of animal husbandry yet to truly understand everything that may be involved. This would be a big learning experience for me, but the person I hope to buy the sheep with does know quite a bit more than I do about sheep care, and I very much trust her judgment as well. I hope to be fairly hands on, so that I could take care of my own sheep completely at some point.

 

Bill, the reason we were thinking about getting our own sheep is that the people we are considering boarding them with have other folks come out to work their sheep with their own dogs, and the sheep have not been especially well treated by these dogs. As a result, some are a bit wary of dogs and immediately look for ways to beat them and go back to the pen. This is okay for the Open dogs, but a bit tough for my novice dog. Thus, we'd like to start with "fresh" sheep if possible. Also, we would like to be in complete control of who works our sheep--though I suppose this would have to be an honor-system trust issue. Still, there'd be less of a chance of "our" sheep being used if they had not ever been used by these folks. We would possibly be able to get some sheep from other friends in our area, so perhaps that would solve the problem of introducing anything unhealthy.

 

I suppose we could also buy some of their lambs, though--but would there be any issues for the lambs and their moms being separated but still physically close to one another after they've been weaned? They are just being weaned now...

 

Thanks for the responses--they're most helpful...

[kelpiegirl]

I am just started in this, and have learned rather quickly, that this is a big undertaking- sort of like all encompasing.. The sheep get checked at least 2x a day- and I always worry about them. I also have to truck buckets of water (not fun). I have a PITA ewe who I plan on trading out if she doesn't fall in line soon. I spoke with the owner, and she says that she is young. If you find any place, make sure it's close to your home. There is lots of time spent driving otherwise. I am lucky in how close it is to my house. I am looking for folks to come and work sheep with me....

Julie

 

Julie, actually we did have one or two people in mind already, both of whom are friends who treat their sheep well. I admit, though, that I really don't know enough about the particulars of animal husbandry yet to truly understand everything that may be involved. This would be a big learning experience for me, but the person I hope to buy the sheep with does know quite a bit more than I do about sheep care, and I very much trust her judgment as well. I hope to be fairly hands on, so that I could take care of my own sheep completely at some point.

 

Bill, the reason we were thinking about getting our own sheep is that the people we are considering have other folks come out to work their sheep with their own dogs, and the sheep have not been especially well treated by these dogs. As a result, some are a bit wary of dogs and immediately look for ways to beat them and go back to the pen. This is okay for the Open dogs, but a bit tough for my novice dog. Thus, we'd like to start with "fresh" sheep if possible. Also, we would like to be in complete control of who works our sheep--though I suppose this would have to be an honor-system trust issue. Still, there'd be less of a chance of "our" sheep being used if they had not ever been used by these folks. We would possibly be able to get some sheep from other friends in our area, so perhaps that would solve the problem of introducing anything unhealthy.

 

I suppose we could also buy some of their lambs, though--but would there be any issues for the lambs and their moms being separated but still physically close to one another after they've been weaned? They are just being weaned now...

 

Thanks for the responses--they're most helpful...

[fpbear]

We got 3 Dorset lambs and so far they have been very low maintenance. When we first got them we'd also go outside and check them several times a day. But that's just because it's a new experience. Now we just go say hi once a day, just for fun, not because we have to. They just roam around eating grass and weeds.

 

We've had a lot of pets over the years, every kind you can imagine from parrots to chameleons. Sheep are among the lowest maintenance we've had. It seems they only need major attention when something goes wrong, illness, bloating, etc. but we've had good fortune nothing bad has happened yet. A couple days ago a small coyote was chasing them around but it just provided some excercise for the sheep and the coyote went away, and we reinforced any gaps in the fence.

[Bill Fosher]

Sheep need regular health care. They should be dewormed regularly (probably monthly, but possibly more often). Feet should be trimmed two or three times a year. They need to be shorn. They need regular access to minerals.

 

It seems they only need major attention when something goes wrong, illness, bloating, etc. but we've had good fortune nothing bad has happened yet.

 

This is a common misconception. By the time "something major" happens, it's often too late. Sheep are excellent at hiding illness until they are very debilitated. It's a function of being a prey animal: the devil takes the hindmost. The shepherd's role is to prevent illness.

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for saying that Bill. I was getting ready to write something, then saw you were here and figured you'd do a much better job. Sheep are fun, but they are also work, and generally more of the latter than the former.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

I think it's good for those new to sheep keeping to ask the folks the sheep came from, what their worming/feet trimming/shots if needed etc., schedule is. It is good to stay on that schedule. Sheep are LOTS of work. Not in feeding- should their be good grass, but every day you should look over them, look for signs of ill health, and/or attitude. Get to know their individual behaviours, and basically become well acquainted with their healthy selves. This is just like keeping any animal. My experience is with horses, and in a short time I got to know my charges, and their nuances- and what was just not right. One thing I have to bring up that absolutely BURNS me, is that where I have the sheep, there is a donkey. That donkey came up last night, and his feet were so overgrown - what do you call it- fairie's slippers? I was just so angry. Can't people take care of the basics? Sure, it's JUST a donkey, but each animal needs basic care. If you can't do it, then don't keep them.

 

 

Anyway, get to know your sheep, get them on a treatment schedule, and everyone will be very happy- also get to know some sheep gurus in your area, so that you can call them if you have any issues.

 

 

Julie

[Guest pax]

I think it's good for those new to sheep keeping to ask the folks the sheep came from, what their worming/feet trimming/shots if needed etc., schedule is. It is good to stay on that schedule. Sheep are LOTS of work. Not in feeding- should their be good grass, but every day you should look over them, look for signs of ill health, and/or attitude. Get to know their individual behaviours, and basically become well acquainted with their healthy selves. This is just like keeping any animal. My experience is with horses, and in a short time I got to know my charges, and their nuances- and what was just not right. One thing I have to bring up that absolutely BURNS me, is that where I have the sheep, there is a donkey. That donkey came up last night, and his feet were so overgrown - what do you call it- fairie's slippers? I was just so angry. Can't people take care of the basics? Sure, it's JUST a donkey, but each animal needs basic care. If you can't do it, then don't keep them.

Anyway, get to know your sheep, get them on a treatment schedule, and everyone will be very happy- also get to know some sheep gurus in your area, so that you can call them if you have any issues.

Julie

 

 

Curling up toes is seriously bad. It puts a lot of pressure on other structures of the foot that are not designed to take it. Left long enough, it will cripple him. It IS painful. Does he have funny ripples or rings on his feet? Little raised rings that might remind you of tree rings?

 

 

 

I know you have a lot on your plate, and I hate to add even one stray thought, but sooner rather than later, that needs to be corrected. I know it is not your responsibility, but maybe they don't understand how bad it is.

[Laurae]

Well, it looks like I'm probably going to go in with three other people to buy sheep (they're all open handlers who would like new sheep that their students don't use) and we'll keep them at the farm of one of the women buying. Hooray!

 

Doing it this way is not nearly as ambitious as doing it Julie's way, but we (the original friend I was thinking of doing this with and I) just have not been able to find a suitable field an area close enough to either of our homes to make it feasible right now. This is also obviously much less work, as we won't need to build any structures or fencing. So this truly is a baby step toward my own sheep, but I hope to learn a lot and eventually be prepared should an opportunity to truly keep my own sheep somewhere come up.

 

Thanks for the kind advice you shared with me earlier--it was a big help.

[fpbear]

Sheep need regular health care. They should be dewormed regularly (probably monthly, but possibly more often). Feet should be trimmed two or three times a year. They need to be shorn. They need regular access to minerals.

This is a common misconception. By the time "something major" happens, it's often too late. Sheep are excellent at hiding illness until they are very debilitated. It's a function of being a prey animal: the devil takes the hindmost. The shepherd's role is to prevent illness.

 

Deworming and access to minerals is real easy. For deworming, feed them alternating formulas of a toothpase like medicine every 3 months. When I first heard of deworming, I thought it was some kind of injection or worm extraction from the rear hindquarters, or something complex like that. I was pleasantly surprised that this maintenance item just has a fancy sounding name. For the minerals, drop some salt blocks where the sheep can find them. They are cheap and last a while.

 

Shearing can be hired out to a professional, but we're doing it ourselves for fun. I do need to learn more about how often foot trimming is required.

 

If one gets into lambing, that is another world that requires even more careful attention to health care.

 

Certainly I'm just a beginner on sheep but I just want to report that my experience is that on a daily-basis they are very low maintenance compared with many types of pets.

 

I think the level of maintenance perception is a relative thing depending on someone's experience with animals. My sister-in-law couldn't handle a kitten when we gave it to her, she wanted it so much because it was cute, and then returned it just two months later. She's better left with stuffed animals.

[juliepoudrier]

Deworming and access to minerals is real easy. For deworming, feed them alternating formulas of a toothpase like medicine every 3 months. When I first heard of deworming, I thought it was some kind of injection or worm extraction from the rear hindquarters, or something complex like that. I was pleasantly surprised that this maintenance item just has a fancy sounding name.

 

Not trying to be mean or anything, but it might help if you were to actually educate yourself about worms and deworming. There certainly are other versions of wormers out there, and I can assure you that in some areas those paste wormers are no longer effective. Worming ineffectively is just as bad as not worming at all. Some wormers are effective against particular types of worms that other wormers don't treat for (e.g., Valbazen covers tapes; cydectin does not). Some wormers are not safe for pregnant sheep, and I would not use other wormers on lambs. So it really is a little more complicated than you are making it out to be.

 

For the minerals, drop some salt blocks where the sheep can find them. They are cheap and last a while.

 

Again, this is an overly simplistic view. Sheep need minerals in certain amounts so you can't just go get any old mineral block and expect it to be a suitable formulation for sheep. For example, too much copper can kill sheep, so mineral formulations that are suitable for horses, cattle, or goats, which have copper levels suitable for those species, can actually kill your sheep. Also, sheep are more inclined to ingest proper amounts of minerals if they are fed in loose form rather than blocks. Sheep mineral isn't as cheap as your average salt/mineral block that you pick up at the local feed store.

 

Shearing can be hired out to a professional, but we're doing it ourselves for fun. I do need to learn more about how often foot trimming is required.

 

Um, foot trimming is required as often as *your* sheep's feet indicate it's necessary. That means you need to check them. Depending on the type of ground your sheep are living on, how much they move around, and the genetics they got from their parents for foot health, you could have to trim more or less often. I trimmed the entire flock at the end of March and the state of some of their feet at the last worming in May was pretty bad, so they needed trimming again. But not all as some apparently have slower growing feet than others.

 

If one gets into lambing, that is another world that requires even more careful attention to health care.

 

Even if you're not lambing, you should pay careful attention to health care.

 

Certainly I'm just a beginner on sheep but I just want to report that my experience is that on a daily-basis they are very low maintenance compared with many types of pets.

 

Well, they can be low maintenance, but generally the reason they are so is the result of good shepherding, which means learning about proper care (wormers, minerals, etc.) and following through, and keeping a close eye on them for any signs of illness, because as Bill said, you won't necessarily know they're sick until they're nearly ready to die--unless you are paying close attention and checking them often.

 

I think the level of maintenance perception is a relative thing depending on someone's experience with animals.

 

Those of us telling you there's more to shepherding than you seem to think are all experienced shepherds. Most of us are quite experienced with all sorts of livestock and pet animals. We are not trying to make it sound harder than it is, but I personally don't think livestock care should be made light of.

 

And on a similar vein, your comments about the coyote giving the lambs a work out, though I understand said in jest, is indicative of your lack of experience. If you have ever seen stock damaged by coyotes or other canids, you wouldn't find it quite so cute that a coyote was chasing your lambs.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

I will give the owner a call tonight- I suspect they know what it looks like, but have chosen to look the other way. Some of the horses are pot bellied too.

Julie

 

Curling up toes is seriously bad. It puts a lot of pressure on other structures of the foot that are not designed to take it. Left long enough, it will cripple him. It IS painful. Does he have funny ripples or rings on his feet? Little raised rings that might remind you of tree rings?

I know you have a lot on your plate, and I hate to add even one stray thought, but sooner rather than later, that needs to be corrected. I know it is not your responsibility, but maybe they don't understand how bad it is.

[fpbear]

Well, they can be low maintenance, but generally the reason they are so is the result of good shepherding, which means learning about proper care (wormers, minerals, etc.) and following through, and keeping a close eye on them for any signs of illness, because as Bill said, you won't necessarily know they're sick until they're nearly ready to die--unless you are paying close attention and checking them often.

 

I would agree with that! I just don't think that reading a book on proper deworming and buying the right salt block at the feed store is all that much work for the novice shepard.

 

Illness can be hard to detect and deal with but that it true for any animal: dog, cat, parrot, ...

 

Now if I can tell you about a severely high maintenance set of animals, it is our marine reef aquarium, pictured below. This requires a very delicate balance of chemistry for the pH, nitrates, alkalinity, salinity, and constant maintenance of the pumps, protein skimmer, calcium hydroxide for coral skeleton growth, the list goes on... but it's all worth it. Maybe that's why I'm telling people here that sheep are relatively low maintenance. We keep a bunch of exotic pets and I'm just used to the real difficult ones.

 

[Bill Fosher]

Deworming and access to minerals is real easy. For deworming, feed them alternating formulas of a toothpase like medicine every 3 months.

 

Negatory, good buddy. Paste wormers are forumlated for cattle or horses and are not labeled for nor effective in sheep. And in some parts of the country (I don't know where you are) a sheep that is not dewormed for three months is a dead sheep. Dry adult ewes are less suceptible to parasitism than lactating ewes, which are in turn less susceptible than lambs, but in a humid climate if you leave sheep on pasture untreated for three months, you can just about count on digging holes. Maybe not the first year, since the ground is clean. But sooner or later.

 

When I first heard of deworming, I thought it was some kind of injection or worm extraction from the rear hindquarters, or something complex like that. I was pleasantly surprised that this maintenance item just has a fancy sounding name.

 

Deworming of sheep is done by the correct dosing of a drench liquid, administered orally. Where things get tricky is in situations where the parasite population is starting to develop resistance to anthelmintic chemicals. Whole books have been written about how to manage sheep under conditions like that, and about the only thing the experts agree on is that sheep as a species are headed to hell in a handbasket if we don't do something pretty soon to regain the upper hand on their parasites. It is certainly more complicated than you make it sound if you want to do it effectively.

 

For the minerals, drop some salt blocks where the sheep can find them. They are cheap and last a while.

 

They will last forever once your sheep break their teeth on them. Or, as Julie pointed out, die from a surplus or paucity of minerals because the block was forumated for cattle, horses, or goats.

[fpbear]

Paste wormers are forumlated for cattle or horses and are not labeled for nor effective in sheep.

 

Bill this is interesting. I am in Southern CA where it never gets humid. I purchased the Dorsets from a sheep expert who has been raising sheep for more than 50 years, and the paste wormers (rotating two different fomulas every 3 months) was what he instructed me to do. He raised the 2005 National Champion Dorset, and my lambs are the offspring (I didn't know this until I went to pick them up, I was just looking for an average lamb, didn't really need a fancy pedigree). So it sounds like there are different opinions from the experts on this. My guess is that the paste wormer will work most the time but in more difficult cases the other wormers are required.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmmm...well, Bill it just goes to show that sometimes you really *are* wasting your breath. But perhaps some of the other folks reading this thread have learned something, since obviously others have their minds closed to any useful advice.

 

J.

[fpbear]

Hmmmm...well, Bill it just goes to show that sometimes you really *are* wasting your breath. But perhaps some of the other folks reading this thread have learned something, since obviously others have their minds closed to any useful advice.

 

No that's not right to say that Julie. I would appreciate if Bill could explain why the other shepard with 50 years experience gave different instructions for the worming. The answer to clarify why I get conflicting advice could be informative for the whole group. That's why we post here, to learn and expand our minds. So let's not get carried away with the attitude and try to be helpful. So far Bill has been very helpful, also on other threads too.

[Bill Fosher]

Since the sheep are show sheep (generally raised in drylots and barns) and your climate is arid, I assume that your sheep have never been particularly challenged by parasites. A shepherd who runs his sheep in drylots probably could use actual toothpaste and not run into many problems. Additionally, show sheep are fed hard enough that any low-level parasitism would be masked by high levels of nutrition.

 

I don't know if your situation is pasture or drylot, but in SoCal it's more likely to be drylot unless it's irrigated. You may not have any trouble with parasites with just three sheep on an acre of land, particularly if they are being fed, as opposed to grazing. If your feeding and management is different from what they're used to, you may start to see some problems.

 

I still think that it's a better practice to stick to products labeled for sheep, particularly if the sheep are going to enter the human food chain. The show industry is notorious for using off-label (and in some instances, illegal) products if they think it will give them an advantage in the show ring. But a sheep is a food animal, and it really should be treated as such.