Shawna Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 In light of what was being discussed on other threads and because I'm having to deal with a dog situation that I'd rather not deal with, I was wondering, what do breeders do with dogs that are at the extremes of biddability/workability? I realize that such dogs are probably rarely seen but what happens to that rare dog who is so "soft" that it can barely function? Or the dog that is so determined to have it's own way that it's practically untrainable? What do the breeders do with them? Do they spay them and make pets out of them? They aren't going to make very good pets either. Or do you just put the dog down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 They find suckers like me to give them to. I have both a too soft dog and a too independent dog. I would like to say, though, that in the pack structure it is benficial to the survival of the pack to have both the very adventurous and the very timid animal. They counter balance each other. And both play an important role - one is adventurous and one is looking at situations cautiously. And in border collie breeding one is always trying to strike that good balance in a good working dog - not too hard, and not too soft, bidable but still able to stand up to the stock, a dog that reacts quickly, but not so quickly that it is frozen with fear. And I think often that kind of breeding is going to produce offspring that are on each end of the spectrum. Its just the nature of the beast. Breeding good border collies is very complicated. There are many issues that have to be addressed when it comes to good working ability. That is why it is so important that people leave the breeding up to the breeders that know what they are doing. That working ability is many faceted and it is easy to produce dogs that are out of balance - and they can be a real mess. That is one of the reasons it is so important not to breed for something like "color" because if you don't address the working ability you will produce unsound, neurotic animals that no one can live with. A dog that has been bred as a sound working dog will be a very stable animal. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted January 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Hey Mary I have a matching set to your dogs! I know there needs to be balance and the only way to do that is to know what your doing as far as breeding. I went back and re-read my post and it looks like I was setting a trap, honestly that is not what I meant. In Bill Gary's thread on the General board, someone said something about unbalanced dogs would have been put down a few years ago. I realize the inferance was about poorly bred border collies but even in the well bred dogs there are some that turn out "not quite right" (I've met a couple, not refering to mine) so I suppose the problem is that if a breeder was to put the dogs down, they would be criticized for "killing a poor animal just cause it couldn't herd sheep", instead they are expected to put the dog out into the pet world and just hope for the best. Not fair to the breeder or the dog if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Actually, they probably would have just been shot. I wasn't aiming those comments at you - you already know. I was aiming them at the people who are new to border collies and think that you can just breed one purebred dog to another. With these dogs it just doesn't work that way. Really, it doesn't work that way with any breed. The fact that the dogs are purebred is probably the least important aspect of the whole deal. I just don't see why anyone would even want to breed. Its expensive. And messy. Trying to keep puppies clean is a full time job. They are the messiest little things. And they are just little destructo machines. And then having to go to the effort of trying to find good homes. Getting attached to them for 8 weeks and then having to let them go. I just don't get it. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 I just don't see why anyone would even want to breed. Its expensive. And messy. Trying to keep puppies clean is a full time job. They are the messiest little things. And they are just little destructo machines. And then having to go to the effort of trying to find good homes. Getting attached to them for 8 weeks and then having to let them go. I just don't get it. <<< Mary, I've been questioning my sanity ever since I've had my first litter. Everything you say is so true. It doesn't end there though,it continues as long as they are alive and that's where I should be put into straight jacket. My latest one,I gave a dog away (my litter) and the poor woman is been dealing with his grand mal seizures. Sweetest dog in the world and this poor woman is so attached to him and I wish there was something more I could do for her. As soon as she told me about the seizures,I ran both the mother and his sister to get a DNA tests just in case one day some geneticist will pinpoint the problematic gene causing so much pain and expense. She found the problem after her grandchildren's visits though. Too much chocolate in his system throwing his metabolism into haywire causing seizures (they think). This was found after rushing back to the hospital as he seized up and throws up all over with chocolate pieces still intact in his system. Now his liver is so out of wack,they are trying everything they can to regulate and he's still seizing up. As soon as I'll stop dyeing my hair,it's will all turn snow white and it's all due to puppy worries (or at least that's what I say to myself). Even at the best homes,things go wrong and it kills me to know the pup which I made,stayed up all odd hours,cleaned after them continously,room service at all hours,joy I got from kissing/fondling and something goes wrong and they are sick or dead. Every night I go to bed wondering what if? what if I kept that dog or what if I placed it somewhere else,will they still be alive and well? They are all going to meet me at the gate one day and don't say I'll blame them when they'll bite my a*se for their misfortunes. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted January 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Been talking to a breeder. She said that she expects a dog to give her at least 50%. If it doesn't it moves on. If the dog shows potential as a pet (ie good temperament and trainability for other things) they go to a pet home (spayed/neutered) other wise they are put down. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 I'm with you Inci. There is so much that can go wrong. Problems with delivery. Puppies get parvo and the whole litter dies, fading puppy syndrome and on and on. And then you have to give them all away. That would rip my heart out. And is there any way to know what those people are really like? You can ask all the right questions and take all the time in the world - and still be wrong. Breeding is for braver people than me. But there have to be breeders or people like me wouldn't have a dog. But, I'm sorry about your dog. I have been down the siezures road and it is awful. Shawna: I hate to see dogs put down because they have wierd personalities. I always feel like there is someone out there that will be a match for that dog. But there are some that you just couldn't place - especially if they are biters. There are so many nice dogs looking for homes that it is a shame to waste the good homes on dogs that are a mess. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 Shawna - Some of those "extreme" dogs have made great farm and trial dogs... In the hands of good handlers. Others are "culled" - usually by spaying/neutering...and those lines are not repeated... Some of these extreme dogs make wonderful pets - in the right homes... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted January 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 I guess that's the whole thing right there - in the right home. In the wrong home these dogs are considered a problem, a nuisance, mistreated and finally dumped for someone else to try to pick up the pieces. In that case I guess all the breeder can do is hope the person they picked is as good as they think, and then hope if something goes wrong, the dog comes back to them. I'm with you Mary, I'm not brave enough to breed dogs. I would spend endless nights worrying what what was happening to my babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 Sure, Shawna, but "in the right home" applies to everything from chickens, to sheep, to dogs, to children...doesn't it? I guess that's kinda the thing. It's tough to let a dog go - particularly an older, started dog, but it's also really wonderful when you still get christmas cards and letters from folks that bought a dog from you years ago... Or, even better, emails like this one from a few days ago: "...I have to share with you that I love the way both **** and *** manage sheep! Their balance is great, they have clever strategies for moving uncooperative ewes, they're sensitive to sheep pressure and reasonable about dealing with it and they're brave . They both can take some handler pressure and still come back and work through a problem. I love these dogs!" Kinda makes it worth while, in my mind...it makes a guy pretty darn proud, and it's important for folks to know that MOST placements turn out this way rather than the "bad way"... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 01-11-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 A good breeder will not only produce well bred puppies BUT they will also give a lot of thought into who gets those puppies..Carefully matching puppies to the person's ablilities. How many border collies are in rescue because that match just wasn't there and the person didn't have the skills to cope with the dog.. Bill..as far as hearing from owners..that goes back to the discussion a while back on contracts..on getting to know buyers beforehand. Also it works both ways I just got an e-mail from the handler I got my dog from telling me that she had heard through the grapevine what a great job I was doing with this dog. And how she knew the first time she saw us together that we were perfect for each other.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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