SoloRiver Posted October 20, 2002 Report Share Posted October 20, 2002 The only real way I can think of to get an accurate estimate of the number of trialing dogs out there would be to contact trial holders and get entry lists. I'd start by obtaining lists of trials sanctioned by regional clubs and the USBCHA sanctioned trials list. Hopefully trialholders would be willing to send the information, which could then be compiled into a database. This way we'd have a list that didn't just include dogs with points. It would be a lot of work, but it's not impossible to do. I'm doing my prelims this semester but I could get a start on this in the spring if anyone thinks the information would be useful -- there's a lot of other stuff that could be mined from the data as well. Requiring registration of every competing dog would also give us comprehensive lists of trialing dogs. For example, most agility organizations require registration with the organization -- which is not the same thing as registration with a breed registry -- before a dog can compete. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would fly in sheepdog culture, but it would provide the information. -- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Posted October 20, 2002 Report Share Posted October 20, 2002 Denise, I think you are way underestimating all the people out there who have border collies, work them some when they can, regard the AKC as anathema, and do not trial. I also think you are underestimating trial dogs. I think there are twice as many as you are counting, maybe more. What about all the novice dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Bailey Posted October 20, 2002 Report Share Posted October 20, 2002 what about getting the local sheepdog clubs to give you a membership total, that would help you gather number of owners that are working their dogs on sheep, even if they are not trialing. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Posted October 21, 2002 Report Share Posted October 21, 2002 The last time I tried to figure this out, I came up with about 9,000 because I added in an estimate of dogs in training but not yet trialing and retired dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Hunt Posted October 22, 2002 Report Share Posted October 22, 2002 A very industrious dutchman has apparently compiled a database from all the ISDS studbooks and come up with some very interesting statistics regarding the genetics of the ISDS registered BC. Here's the link: http://home-l2.tiscali.nl/~palado/bcdb/article1/WSN1c.htm Julia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skd Posted October 24, 2002 Report Share Posted October 24, 2002 >>>Denise said: For example, the area of white section has undoubtedly increased over the past ten years as pet Border Collies are being bred en mass for pets. <<< Denise, I'm wondering about "pet" Borders being produced en mass. I went on a rampage a few months ago, and investigated most of the pet stores (places I absolutely dispise) who carry puppies in a midwest city of some size. I was disheartened to find that several had or had recently had Border puppies. All the pups currently in residence had ABCA papers, and the staff proudly showed them, bragging that the pups were from working homes. On checking around thru emails to other folks in towns large enough to have pet stores, the same seemed to be true. This is not the first time I've done some checking. I've never seen AKC pups in any of these petstores. Perhaps this is a unique community? Or perhaps not. Sheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Denise, As long as we allow any dog -- including KC registered dogs -- into the registry via the ROM process, are we really limiting the gene pool at all? Obviously, it's harder to get a dog registered via ROM than by birthright, but wouldn't that also ensure that the dogs we're bringing in from the AKC are the real article, and not just registered for marketing purposes? ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penny Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Some thought needs to be given to the possibility of introducing CL in this country in ABCA dogs and ways to avoid that. I have read that CL arose from a mutation in Australia but I do not know that for a fact. Only Australian bloodlines are said to carry it. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 "All the pups currently in residence had ABCA papers, and the staff proudly showed them, bragging that the pups were from working homes." Good argument for eliminating dual registration, Sheryl...getting rid of the "versatile" breeders. Since ABCA registers pups a LOT cheaper than the akc, I'm betting dual registration breeders intent on dumping pups do so under the ABCA registration... Since MOST of the akc only dogs being bred, currently, are being bred for "title" reasons, I'm guessing they DO manage to find homes for them...probably at outrageous prices, and don't need to put them in pet stores. Especially since thier gene pool is so currently limited, and nearly every akc bred dog has some champion foo-foo the third in their lines... And while "pet" owners may get upset (and I guarantee you you won't find "good 'uns" from "real" working homes in pet stores - we've had the discussion before that just because someone lives in the country doesn't make them a working breeder) - the driving factor is not simply to find good homes for every pup born - but to find good homes for every GOOD pup born... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-25-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skd Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 >>>All the pups currently in residence had ABCA papers, and the staff proudly showed them, bragging that the pups were from working homes." Good argument for eliminating dual registration, Sheryl...getting rid of the "versatile" breeders. <<<< HUH? >>>>Since ABCA registers pups a LOT cheaper than the akc, I'm betting dual registration breeders intent on dumping pups do so under the ABCA registration...<<< This is utter nonsense. Anyone reading the Sunday ads can see that if one wants to dump pups, the AKC label has a better chance. I have never seen a dual registered pup advertised or represented as such in a petstore or in an ad. No AKC papers are available on the ones I've checked. And I've been watching these two venues for most of the 10 years I've owned Borders. The LOT cheaper you talk about is the difference between $8 plus membership-maybe $10 total(ABCA) VS an avg of $22 for an AKC pup, comparison estimated on one litter a year. Hardly a wide chasm. NO, having traced the breeders on several of these pups, I guess you could call some of them back-farm or puppy mill breeders. But somewhere in every paper I've looked at so far, there are well known American or British trial dogs. >>>Since MOST of the AKC only dogs being bred, currently, are being bred for "title" reasons, I'm guessing they DO manage to find homes for them...probably at outrageous prices, and don't need to put them in pet stores.<<< Yes, indeed. They do find safe homes for then, and some at outrageous prices. But then, I've heard of outragous prices from some of our finest too. I'd have a hard time paying $1200 for an eight week old pup, no matter who the mother was. If you go to any large AKC show, you couldn't help but notice that there are barely enough Borders to offer a conformation class (even few of which are AKC-only bred). But the agility, obedience, and herding classes are full of them. Many of their owners toss their pretty ribbons in the trash on the way out the door, and could care less about the titles. They are there because they want to do something with their dogs. They didn't buy a couch potato dog. They sought out an active and intelligent dog to fit their active and intelligent life styles. And they know where to shop. The vast majority are seeking the best herding dog they can find, as they recognize the mental and physical integrity of the working dog. These people do their homework. Those "versatile breeders" you talk about are ABCA's finest. >>Especially since thier gene pool is so currently limited, and nearly every akc bred dog has some champion foo-foo the third in their lines...<<< You are probably right here, as there are not as many "AKC- only bred" dogs around as thought. The show-only dogs are freqently imported from NZ or British or ? show lines. >>>just because someone lives in the country doesn't make them a working breeder) - the driving factor is not simply to find good homes for every pup born - but to find good homes for every GOOD pup born...>>> Huh? again. It is the breeder's responsibility to find a good home for EVERY pup produced, not just the "good" ones. For the record, and separate from the comments responded to above, I am definitely and forever NOT an AKC fan. I just look at the GSD which can no longer walk and the Golden, allergic to grass, and the Lab too fat and short legged to hunt, and the Aussie-newf, and the disgust just grows and grows. I got a similar feeling yrs ago, when I attended a horse show and saw the quarter horse classes with heads dragging and feet shuffling as if the poor animals were about to collapse and die. Hope I didn't step on toes there. BUT, BUT, the arguments against AKC need to be coherent, sensible, accurate, based on something real, or the argument harms the intent. There is no shortage of passion on either side of this issue. But the passion needs to be tempered by thoughtful, rational debate and discussion. emotion without content expressed by both sides is ineffective and an embarrassment to the dignity and integrity of the Border Collie. Sheryl (almost afraid to sign my name) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 How about raising the price of registration in the ABCA. Might that deter some of these pet shop and BYB breeders from registering with ABCA? I read other Border Collie message boards and have run across quite a few of these "versatile" breeders. One in particular breeds for nothing special. Just nice calm pets. She claims all the ranchers in her area come to her for her puppies because they make better ranch dogs than the high strung working only bred ones. She doesn't trial or show any of her breeding stock and mixes Show and working lines. Boasts constantly about her 1 working bred smooth hair. When the dogs have past breeding age she gives them away. Can't change these people's minds tho but maybe hitting them in the pocket book might change their minds about dual registering their dogs. I personally wouldn't mind a higher reg. fee if it helped to preserve the working ability of the Border Collie. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 25, 2002 Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Once again, someone posts something, gets upset about someone disagreeing with her - and claims she is "afraid to post her name"... Utter nonsense? My, my,. "Be nice" you said in another post - doesn't apply to you...? Let's see, I can register ABCA, call my lines "working lines" for $2 a pup, or I can register them akc at $50 and sending in two photos and I don't care anyway because I'm dumping them off at the pet store because nobody wants my ill-bred "farm" dogs. A back yard breeder is a back yard breeder, Sheryl, even if that breeder registers ABCA. And of course there are many trial dogs in those pedigrees - there aren't THAT MANY DOGS OUT THERE, that well-known dogs and breeders won't show up in many, if not most, dog's pedigrees - at least the ABCA registered ones... Heck, go that website someone posted here from that Dutch fellow who statistically has proven that nearly every single dog in the ISDS is related to Wiston Cap... It also is pretty easy to buy a dog and breed it, heck they do it almost on thier own. Pope Robertson's title can be ominous when applied here, "Anybody can do it". As far as "throwing thier ribbons in the trash" perhaps you could answer the question I posted under another topic... You then, being nice, state: "Huh? again. It is the breeder's responsibility to find a good home for EVERY pup produced, not just the "good" ones." It is the breeders PRIMARY responsibility to breed ONLY good ones - and if they are truly good - then homes are available for them. It is only mediocre breeders and mediocre breedings that don't place the dogs easily and quickly and safely. Now, I suggest we take this discussion to another thread, feel free to start it, and keep this one for the genetics discussion. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 10-25-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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