Round pen or Field

[5Bordercollies]

Hi guys,

I need some advice, I'm seriously trying to start my year old BC pup to work stock. Goats specifically, we are unfortunately having to sell our sheep due to predator problems. This afternoon I took her with me to check on the ewes that have been separated due to them making udder. Things started OK, but pretty soon went to hell in a handbasket. The ewes were a little too reactive (not sure if it's just cause there's only 21 now vs normally 60 odd, the smaller space or just being goats.) And Meg got completely riled up not knowing where to block, growling a little, threatening to grip, etc.

Now this same puppy have on occasion gotten loose, gathered 60 odd rather wild sheep in a big field with no problems at all. She has also gathered the whole goat herd on one occasion in their normal sleep camp (they're currently sleeping in an old rock kraal) with again no problem. They gathered together and she kept them there no problem.

Now my question to you guys is: if this was your pup would you go a step back and put the pup in a round pen, or try and see if she manages better with the rest of the herd in a bigger camp.

I'm wondering if the field\camp might be less pressure on her vs the round pen which in my case is pretty small, not even sure if I'll be able to fit the pup and some goats in there eventually, Then again the camp is pretty big and I'm scared that I'll loose control.

Maybe try and section off a smaller part of the big camp and try to round off the worst of the corners?

If this was your pup what would your choice be?

[juliepoudrier]

Personally I like the larger space and larger groups, but I also have a fully trained, mature dog to help contain the situation.

 

Without actually seeing the spaces you're talking about, it's hard to really say what would work best for your youngster.

 

J.

[denice]

Take her to an area where you have Control. Use the number of stock that best enables the contol. If it takes you a minute to stop something bad you are only teaching bad habits. If you can correct in seconds and then release her to work again that is what you want. Not to prevent it because she will not learn that way. Be close enough to help her and watch for signs she needs help. Once she has the basics you can go bigger but never think a smaller space is going backwards. If you can take one step to help or correct then go back to work she will understand LOTs faster. I have taken a 5 yr old to the round pen to help him with something.

[Alchemist]

FWIW, the person I train with likes to start pups in a VERY small area (her "pole barn") - smaller than your typical round pen, and with corners. She feels that being exposed to so much pressure helps them calm down later in their training and makes them less likely to engage in gripping when under pressure. Once they've gotten past the "want to grip the sheep" phase and are happy to come to her when in the middle of several sheep in tight quarters, she'll move them into a medium-sized field, and then into a bigger pasture. It usually only takes a few sessions. But she does start them with puppy sheep who know the drill pretty well and won't challenge a puppy. She feels it's important for first experiences for pups to be positive.

[juliepoudrier]

But she does start them with puppy sheep who know the drill pretty well and won't challenge a puppy. She feels it's important for first experiences for pups to be positive.

 

I think this is the most important part of this post. The places you train and the stock you use will also drive your choices of location to work your dog. It does no good to put a pup in a small space with wild sheep/goats--that's just a disaster waiting to happen, for the most part, because the pup could get hurt or the stock could kill themselves on the fence. If you have some well broke sheep or goats, then it probably doesn't matter what size area you start in (if all you have is a large space, you can work in a corner of that space, for example.

 

Also, you can just as easily have a small group in a small space and still create problems for your pup. For example, where I live now, there are three young goats who are used to introduce puppies to stock. They are good in that they won't run over you, but they also don't stick together very well. There's one in particular that breaks off on its own a lot. When I'm starting a youngster and want to end our session I usually walk up to the fence with the stock following me, get the stock stopped on the fence, which helps the pup to stop on balance, then walk through the stock toward the pup and call it to me. That normally works well, but in this case, the one singleton invariably tries to make a break for it and as I'm walking forward to call the pup to me, the pup jumps up to cover the escapee, which is what the pup should want to do, but it's not helping ME accomplish my goal of ending the session and calling the pup off quietly and calmly. So small spaces and appropriate stock is also relative. These goats have their purpose, but in very short order they are no longer appropriate for what I want a pup to learn.

 

Good puppy sheep are priceless, but they also have a limited period of utility before the pup is ready to move on to more challending situations.

 

I generally use my whole (lightly dogged) flock, but of course I've trained a few pups, so can keep control of the situation with the help of a trained dog. I like to work youngsters in large and small spaces so that they are versatile and comfortable working. And there's nothing wrong with going back to smaller areas. In fact, it's a good idea so that the dog learns it can work in close and at a distance and how to deal with stock in both situations (because the same stock will behave differently if they think they have hope of escape (or not).

 

I know you don't have anyone nearby to help you, but it would help for you to have some help if you can get it, even occasionally.

 

J.

[5Bordercollies]

Thanks a million everyone. Seems we'll be going to the round pen for a while.