Crossing over on outruns

[dsmbc]

I'm a beginner and working with a young dog. I am starting to try and extend his outrun (still really short only 100 ft). Every time I sent him, he would crossover as he got to the sheep. this is not something he's done before. He can be kind of a sticky dog and I have had to work to keep him in motion and taking the flank. Could crossing over be another symptom of the same problem? Any suggestions on how to get him to continue on the correct flank and not cross over?

[lookback]

The rule is - if the dog crosses over, you're sending it too far.

 

Does the dog cross over on both sides? Usually the dog will cross to its favoured side as its confidence ebbs (the further away it gets from the handler).

 

Is there some other factor involved? The dog won't be nearly as bold if the sheep are close to a fence or boundary hedge etc - worse still if they're in a corner.

 

Reduce the distance and practice, practice, practice on that side (or both) and only increase the distance very gradually. You can help the dog build its confidence by standing at some point between it and the sheep before you send it off. Then you can wave or chase the dog out wider as it comes past you. You'll also be closer to the dog when it reaches the sheep than you would have been if you sent it from your side - this will increase the dog's confidence.

 

Make it easy for the dog, then as it gains confidence, gradually introduce more difficult tasks.

[stockdogranch]

The main question I always ask myself is *why* is the dog crossing over. As Andy points out, it might be to go to the preferred side, or the stock are close to a fence or something of that nature. I once had a dog who would insist on crossing over to go into the heads--she would not go into the butts, as she was trying to control the heads. And to her, that made sense--she felt that if she went into the butts, and the stock left, she would have to go much farther, faster, to cover them. So, in a sense, she was right, except, of course, she needed to learn to go the way I sent her. I just made sure I really set things up properly to make sure she stayed on the side I sent her from. With time, of course, she got over the crossing over.

 

So the bottom line is--when the dog is not doing as you ask or expect, try to figure out why, and that will help you fix it,

A

[Jim Kling]

The dog may not be willing to release the sheep due to pressure. Is there a gate or sheep or something else attracting them in the direction the dog is coming from? As the dog starts to go around the sheep, she might be sensing that the sheep want to come down the field towards the handler due to pressure, and then flips to cut them off before continuing around to finish the outrun.

 

If this is happening, you can change positions so that the pressure isn't as strong and/or is drawing the sheep in a different direction -- for example, a draw to one side, and you can send the dog into the pressure.

[dsmbc]

Thanks for comments, insights and suggestions. very helpful. Could be the stock were too close to the fence and could be I sent him too far too fast. will try to set it up better and see how he does.

[Gloria Atwater]

You've got good advise here. When you do lengthen his outrun, lengthen it only by a few yards. Don't go from 10 yards to 40 yards to 100 yards. Do it just a few yards at a time. Also be mindful of the draw. Which way are the sheep most apt to go? Your dog may cross to cover that side. And beware of pressure from fences, as others have noted.

Try again a little closer and see what results you get. Also, if he has a good Down, you can set him, walk towards your sheep a ways and then send him so that he has to go past you at the point he would otherwise cross over. But first be careful you haven't just stretched him out a bit too far, too soon. Sometimes only a few yards is the difference.

Good luck!

~ Gloria

[lookback]

Also, if he has a good Down, you can set him, walk towards your sheep a ways and then send him so that he has to go past you at the point he would otherwise cross over.

 

I can't agree with this.

Stopping a dog on its outrun can teach the dog that it's OK to stop on its outrun if it feels like it. If you have any aspirations towards sheepdog trials this can lose you a bunch of points - and it's bad practice anyway.

 

I prefer to calmly air my disapproval at what the dog's done wrong, but allow it to continue on the outrun. I will then set the dog up, placing myself between the dog and the sheep for the next outrun.

 

If I really feel I must end the dog's outrun - rather than stop it, I call the dog back to me before setting it up as described (and no, this doesn't teach the dog to come back to me on its outrun).

[Sue R]

No, I don't think Gloria is suggesting to stop him *during* his outrun but rather to lie him down at the distance from the sheep that you want him to leave on his outrun, walk yourself to a point between him and the sheep, and then send him on his outrun - that way, you are there to put some pressure on him to keep him from crossing over. It is something that is commonly done at least over in North America.

[lookback]

You can help the dog build its confidence by standing at some point between it and the sheep before you send it off. Then you can wave or chase the dog out wider as it comes past you. You'll also be closer to the dog when it reaches the sheep than you would have been if you sent it from your side - this will increase the dog's confidence.

 

 

lie him down at the distance from the sheep that you want him to leave on his outrun, walk yourself to a point between him and the sheep, and then send him on his outrun - that way, you are there to put some pressure on him to keep him from crossing over.

 

Just as I described in my first post. I hope that's what Gloria meant - I know some trainers advocate stopping the dog in mid-flight but in my opinion it's bad practice. (Just trying to be helpful).

[Gloria Atwater]

Oh, no, I didn't mean stop a dog on its outrun! Goodness, no!

What I meant was to set the dog in a Down-stay in preparation for an outrun, walk some way towards the sheep and then send him on his full outrun. My suggestion was aimed at simply having the handler standing where the dog is prone to cross over, so as to send him on the outrun and encourage him to keep going on his outrun.

The same thing Sue said.

Sorry for the confusion!

~ Gloria

 

 

I can't agree with this.

Stopping a dog on its outrun can teach the dog that it's OK to stop on its outrun if it feels like it. If you have any aspirations towards sheepdog trials this can lose you a bunch of points - and it's bad practice anyway.

[lookback]

Oh, no, I didn't mean stop a dog on its outrun! Goodness, no!

 

That's good news - my apologies for misinterpreting your words, Gloria.

[dsmbc]

Have been working more and found distance and proximity to the fence were part of it, but realized that the biggest problem was me stepping into him.

 

I was doing this trying to kick him out wider. Now if I step back instead, he doesn't cross over, but still comes in too tight at the top. Any suggestions on how to kick him out wider on the top without causing the crossover?

[lookback]

if I step back instead, he doesn't cross over, but still comes in too tight at the top. Any suggestions on how to kick him out wider on the top without causing the crossover?

 

Yes!

Reduce the distance of the outrun. You're trying to send the dog too far, too soon.

 

If you need to be close to the sheep to widen the dog out, and the dog crosses over, you need to reduce the length of the outrun, so you're close enough to control both.

 

Increase the distance very gradually - reducing it again, if the dog crosses over, or comes in too tight at the top. Once you can trust the dog not to cross, you can increase the distance - as long as you're close to the sheep to keep the dog out.

[dsmbc]

Thanks Andy!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Derek Scrimageour makes a good point about increasing OR distance. Typically we simply set the sheep out a little farther. Derek suggests we move back a little farther so the young dog arrives in familiar territory. No, I haven't tried it but it makes sense to me.

 

While stopping a correct outrun is probably always a mistake - endangering the dog's mental motor - downing an incorrect outrun nearby and forcing the dog out is a standard way of improving a too tight OR as well as teaching the redirect.

 

Once the dog is totally committed to a flawed OR and a good distance up the field I don't think it can hear much the handler says/whistles/yells.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pam Wolf]

Never thought about it, but I rarely move the sheep farther, I usually take the dog back farther, but I think the main thing is I am willing to gradually build an OR, not hoping that it is good today and it will always be good, realizing that dogs do not generalize easily and trying to see that the dog understands the OR (as well as other things) when the sheep are hiddeen as well as seen (but then I have lots of hills so out of sight is the norm)

[lookback]

Typically we simply set the sheep out a little farther. Derek suggests we move back a little farther so the young dog arrives in familiar territory. No, I haven't tried it but it makes sense to me.

 

Makes sense to me too - except that most beginners don't have a trained dog to position the sheep for them so they have to make-do with gathering the sheep from wherever they are (and sheep being sheep, this will be in the most awkward place they can find).

 

While stopping a correct outrun is probably always a mistake - endangering the dog's mental motor - downing an incorrect outrun nearby and forcing the dog out is a standard way of improving a too tight OR as well as teaching the redirect.

 

Nearby is the critical word here - but unfortunately, beginners tend not to have quick reactions, and the dog may be much further away by the time they decide (let alone, manage) to stop it. Stopping the dog when it's well into its outrun, MIGHT give the dog an excuse to stop sometime when it's confidence is low on a long outrun somewhere (particularly away from home).

 

Of course, it's a matter of opinion - but my advice is to grumble at the dog to show you're not happy with whatever it's done wrong on the outrun - but allow it to complete it. Then reduce the distance of the next outrun, set the dog up correctly, and send it off again, giving praise when it gets it right.

 

I'm not saying stopping a dog on its outrun WILL encourage the dog to stop on a future outrun, I'm saying that there's a possibility, and I prefer not to take the risk.

[Sue R]

Good discussion with lots to think about!