over-aggressive to select people

[glenna]

I'm looking for ideas.....I have a 6 month old border collie who is very well behaved with one exception.....she has singled out three men (2 relatives and 1 friend) who she simply will not warm up to. She has bitten one and contines to bark and try to bark any of them when either we go to their homes or they come to our home. She does not do this with other men, women or children. I've tried having her on the choke chain when near them, I've tried Bitter Apple.....she simply will not stop being over-aggressive to these few. Any ideas? I'm now afraid to not have her on a leash when someone new comes to the door in fear that she may try to bite them. There is no apparent reason for these particular three....two have facial hair, one doesn't. All different sizes....different voice types. Any ideas?

[Guest rtphokie]

Instead of using aversives (choke chain, bitter apple), why not teach her to associate these men with positive things, like treats and toys? Have these scary men toss her A+ treats or her fave toy and praise her for acting calm in their presence and approaching them (if she gets to that point). Let her approach them on her terms and on a slack leash. Also try getting her used to them on a nuetral territory (sidewalk, neighbor's driveway, etc..). Try being relaxed also - she can sense your panic. If need be have someone else handle her.

 

What were the circumstances when she bit? Has she ever bit in any other circumstances?

 

You might want to find a good obedience trainer or behaviorist so they can help you work with her in person and see what is going on.

 

-Laura

[glenna]

Thank you for your reply.

 

We have tried the positive reinforcement thing....the problem is, she'll take the treat and be all lovey, but then when they turn their back she tries to bite them! Talk about biting the hand that feeds her!

 

We always give good verbal reinforcement for behavioras well. This one has us stumped. There appears to be no consistency and it doesn't matter the location.....here, there, nutreal.....it's disturbing as we don't know how she's going to act depending on who comes to the door. For the most part she's friendly with everyone once she sniffs them....it's just these three.....any other ideas?

 

Thanks, Glenna

[SoloRiver]

There's plenty of consistency. It's always the same three people. Be thankful. At least you know what to expect.

 

You have to keep trying the positive reinforcement thing. She may be willing to take the treat but still be worried. It's impossible to tell without seeing the dog in action but she may be fearful of these men. What you need to do is proceed VERY slowly and gradually and most of all do NOT allow her access to these men where she might hurt them.

 

Aversives will not help. You may be able to extinguish the behavior but the motivation will still be there. If she is fearful aversives are the absolute worst way to deal with the problem because they'll only reinforce her perception that something is bad and scary about these people (the man comes in, I get scared, mommy starts choking me and spraying me in the face with nasty stuff, she's usually so nice, why the heck does she do that?).

 

Laura was absolutely right, you want to teach her to associate these men with good things. Since she already has a host of bad associations with them this will take a while. Find a behaviorist or trainer experienced in the use of classical conditioning and counter conditioning for dealing with phobias and anxiety issues to help you. When you have a dog that has already bitten, professional help is in order. Make sure that the professional uses reward-based, non-aversive training techniques.

 

The basic principle is to expose the dog to a level of the stimulus (the thing that causes the problem behavior) that the dog can handle without doing the problem behavior. In this dog's case it may be having the man walk by the open door of a room the dog is in, without entering the room, or even farther away. Pair each exposure with something the dog likes so that she forms an association between the good thing (treat, toy, whatever) and the bad thing (the guy). Keep sessions short and don't push the dog and always end on a good note. Don't up the ante unless the dog is rock solid and OK at whatever level you're working at. Once she is non-reactive while the guy is walking by the door, start having him stop in the doorway and then walk on. Once she's OK with that, have him take one step into the room and then leave. Then two steps. Then more. Then walking into the room and sitting in a chair. You get the picture.

 

Go slow. Don't allow interactions with the men that you don't control in this manner. This is as much for their safety as it is for your dog's education. Protect her and them from bad interactions. One bad interaction could undo weeks of work.

 

Some books that might help you are _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson and _The Cautious Canine_ by Patricia McConnell. _How to be the Leader of the Pack_ by Patricia McConnell is also a book you should have. Its advice dovetails well with the one in her other book. The two McConnell books are actually booklets and cost approx. $5 each. The Donaldson book should be in every dog owner's library. They're both available through sources like Sitstay.com and Dogwise.com.

 

Hope this helps.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red (fear aggressive) and The Fly (normal)

[ikw]

Glenna,

 

These 3 men,do they look at your pup straight in the face? Whereas other men does not pay attention to her?

 

I have a dog who was not fond of anyone except me,he still not fond of anyone but learn to tolerate and ignore others.

 

From the time when he was about 5 weeks,I realized he was off into his own world when faced with strangers. There are some pups/young dogs where you can push them to accept his surroundings,some you cannot. This pup fell into category of "not pushing things to him".

Anyone who came around,including my husband,was told to completely ignore him. When he reached about 5 months,I caught him sending out low growls to a visitor. I immediately told him "no way Jose!" and we do not operate with this attitude.

After that,I started to take him everywhere on a leash,when I heard any sound from him, a simple "ugh" as I looked down to him, shut him up. For about 6-7 more months,when he thought about growling,he would try to make an eye contact with me since he knew I would be displeased.

He's now 2 years old and no one would ever know he was a fearful shy boy. He still won't greet anyone nor I would want him to or any of my other dogs,if anyone approaches him,he stands there and wags his tail. Pushing him to accept people when he showed fear of them by either treats or positive anything would not have worked on him,on the contrary,it would've feed his fears more and more.

 

You have to see what will work best for your young dog. When she starts getting agitated,watch for the signs and try to avert her attention to elsewhere before she starts.

 

 

------------------

Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ikw (edited 11-20-2002).]

[vpwolf]

Inci,

Hey, this method works great, used it on one of my dogs also, he was just as you described yours to be. I did add a "twist" to it though. I handed out doggie treats at the door and as they sat and ignored him they did so with a doggie treat within reach if he decided to approach and be friendly they were instructed to let him have it without eye contact. This dog is now the premier goose dog at one of the most well established golf courses here......and he does well with all people but this process did take over a year to complete.....patience is a MUST.

Kris Wolf

[Shawna]

I did the same thing with Devin. When I first got him a few months ago, he would bark, growl, hide and/or pee himself when he met someone new (with the rare exception of some women).

 

I used some form of correction (mostly just a snarly "NO" from me) when he showed aggression, otherwise his stupidity (aka shyness) was ignored. When he would appropriatly approach someone on his own, I would quietly praise him (verbal only). He started to watch me to see if I was pleased or displeased with what he was doing. Even in such a short time there is a marked improvement in his behaviour around other people although he is still often aloof.

 

We were out hiking a few weeks ago and a fellow with a beard and a walking stick (two very scary things) came up the path towards us. Devin trotted up and walked along with him, quietly wagging his tail and "grinning". I was so excited, I made a complete fool of myself

 

One other thing I did in the beginning was put him in a down when people he was afraid of were in the room. By not letting him roam around, he had to deal with the presence of the other people in the room without ever feeling crowded.

 

[This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 11-24-2002).]

[Pam Wolf]

Just a word of caution on correcting the dog for growling. I have worked with several BC's (and a few other breeds) which were corrected for growling. They did indeed stop growling, they just bit w/o warning. The growl is a warning that the dog is uncomfortable with something.

 

Pam

[2 Devils]

I have to agree with everyone else.

 

I helped someone with a very aggressive australian cattledog and we know how they can be...this dog was prone to bite anyone that it met.

 

Of course the owner had no clue how to handle it so she never had the people ignore the dog and she would keep him on leash. And many dogs are leash aggressive to begin with so she was doing everything wrong. Plus the dog would go crazy when a truck went by so there were a couple things going on.

 

So when I went out to meet this "vicious" dog, I called her about 5 minutes before I was going to arrive. I told her to put the dog in the crate. I did not want him to watch me drive up and go crazy at the window and that carry over to me when walking in the house.

 

I proceeded to arrive, knock on the door and talk to the owner a few minutes inside.

 

I then went and got a hand full of treats and went and sat down. I continued talking to the owner and told her to let the dog out of the crate without being leashed.

 

She was terrified that the dog was going to bite me. When the "aggressive" dog came out, I made sure never to make eye contact or talk to him. When he would come over to me I would just give him a treat or throw one at him. I never spoke to him or looked at him for probably 15-20 minutes.

 

He came over to me and put his paws up on my leg so I petted him and that was all it took. After that, I could look at him, talk to him and pet on him. After about an hour or so, I was even able to get him to take treats from my mouth. I know not a smart thing but he enjoyed it. He tried to leave with me when I left.

 

This dog was fear aggressive because of lack of socializing. The owner only had him for about 3 months. She got him from the breeder at the age of 2 or so, and he was not socialized. He turned out not to be show quality so the breeder left him in a small kennel and never even petted the dog.

 

The owner was impressed with how Hulley and I got along. I told her that she needs to follow what I did because it works for him. She did not follow it for about 2 months and he was still going after people. BUT, then she finally decided to follow my instructions and he has been reintroduced to many of those he has bit and is doing quite well.

 

I know this may not work for all but it is an example of why not to look at a fearful dog. In time, it can be worked out and their curiosity may get the best of him. I truly think that the key was not giving him a chance to get aggressive at the window when a car/truck pulled up. With all that adrenaline pumping and then you take into account his fears, it made the situation unbearable for Hulley.

 

Hulley and his owner are still working on his issues but she says he is getting much better and has been almost a perfect angel.

 

Kim

 

PS. I need to learn to proof read before submitting.

 

 

[This message has been edited by 2 Devils (edited 11-24-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by 2 Devils (edited 11-24-2002).]

[Shawna]

Sorry Pam, your right and I should have been more clear in my post.

 

I physically corrected Devin for snapping and snarling. The rest of my corrections were just verbal, like I said earlier. They were more for the attempt to do something rather than just growl, although I did give him a nasty look and an "enough" command for growling. "Enough" doens't mean don't ever do that, it means stop that for now.

 

The reason I chose this method over treats was because the treat method had been used on a littermate without a very good outcome (he put a hole in a fellows face). The previous owners tried to do a similar thing with toys but all that happens is that Devin fetches the toy, throws it at the person and then runs away. As soon as the toy disappears the extreme fearful like behaviour reappears.

 

These particular dogs are so heavily (ahem) linebred that Darcy and Devin are nearly cookie cutter dogs in every way. When Darcy was a pup I gently corrected (a deaper voice and a "that's rude") and made her do things. She grew up loving people and will let anyone,young or old, pet her. Devin was beyond pushing but he strives to please, just like Darcy. This seemed the best choice for what I knew of family history.