cholla Posted March 8, 2001 Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 On www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/4620/prong.html There is an article on the use of choke collars versus the use of prong collars. The results seem to speak for themselves. I wish they had included flat collars also. From an Anne Marie Silverton seminar:"A study on prong collars was done in Germany. 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke collars and 50 used prong collars. The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, necropsies were performed. Of the 50 wich had choke collars, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back; 2 of those were determined to be genetic. Of the 50 wich had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area; 1 was determined to be genetic,1 was caused by trauma." Just something to think about. Remember anything we use is just a tool. It is up to us to use it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted March 8, 2001 Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 I don't see a reason for anybody to use either except in extreme cases. I prefer the buckle collar myself. I think the people who encourage the use of choke and prong collars should be willing to put the thing on their neck and get the same correction they give their dog. I have seen too many obedience classes where the poor dogs were jerked all over the place all in the name of getting a proper heel or sit(for what? a title?) I do think as a tool they can be useful in some situations, usually because the dog hasn't been properly trained to start with. ------------------ Wendy Carlson Goldenoaks Farm carlson@qcconnect.com Aledo, IL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanea Posted March 8, 2001 Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 Gosh, I hate the idea of those hard core collars, especially for a medium sized dog like the border collie. Curious about the no pull harnass made by Sporn. What do you think of that? My training instructor showed us how to put a regular leash under the legs if we have a major problem with pulling. I like the idea of a sure thing in a high traffic situation for those more dangerous times. I wouldn't even depend on good training for those times. Are any of you familiar with the Sporn harnass that goes behind the front legs? Supposedly the ASPCA approves this harnass for dogs in general as a no-pull trainer. What do you think? (Cholla, don't mean to change your thread, just wanted your and others opinions on this). Supposedly works on the assumption that while the dog pulls naturally against a pressure on the neck, the harnass puts pressure on pressure points behind the front legs that the dog doesn't want to pull against. Supposedly, some vets stated that this is a kinder, gentler way of walking the dog if on a leash. Is this bunk or nonsense? --Heidi ------------------ humble at heart... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cholla Posted March 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 I have not heard of them, will ask the people in our club. When I started training dogs, 28 years ago, we did it on a flat collar on puppies and on a choke collar on older dogs. Pinch collars started to be used around here some 10 or so years ago(I guess we here learn of new things after others have experimented). I have heard about halter type restrains and their proper use and why they work and when and why they should be used or not. Our club members use what they like best, sometimes different on different dogs. Most training in classes by the public is reccomended be done on flat collars on puppies and "nice" dogs and on choke collars on dogs with some problems. We think that the most important question on what to use is to have an experienced trainer looking at you and your dog, assessing how you and your dog are getting along, how much and how well you are training each other, and then helping the pair with ways to improve, some of wich may be to use a specific collar. Our club had been training with food for several years, and when I had my last puppy I tried. In the house with no leash at all, she was working any heeling pattern with excellent attention, fast automatic sits, down, stand, stays, recalls, the whole nine yards, without a leash and with food not on me but used only as a jackpot,sitting on a chair or on the floor for distraction. All that by four months and never on a leash, the leash only used outside or in puppy class. I weaned her from food for anything except to learn new behaviors or as an ocassional treat. I think that if you train well anything you use will depend on what youlike. I do not know what you mean by " for very bad situations were you need extra control" you may need any special equipment. What if you are in that situation without it? You need to train for control in all situations the same. [This message has been edited by cholla (edited 03-08-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted March 8, 2001 Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 The obedience club I used to go to used choke or prong collars as necessary equipment. Motivational training seemed to be used only by a few people, and those were experienced. The general public was told to use choke collars(even on toy dogs) with few exceptions, and prong collars on difficult dogs. Some of the more difficult(pulled on leash too much) dogs, or dogs that were maybe too big for the owner to handle would be the ones I would think might need the training collars. It seemed to be easier for beginners to understand and get a handle on their dogs in the 6 weeks that they were taking classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cholla Posted March 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 In our club, when people come to sign up, we show them on a trained dog what they can do and how and what to use for a collar and why. Then they have a week to try a little if they want before the first class. Most anymore come with a buckle collar and treats and then the trainer has to show them how to time them right and keeps the class moving. Any training is so good today compared to many years ago that from one lesson to the next there is a great difference in the dogs and people. Teachers know more how to motivate and keep interes better and people's interes is helped by all the publicity in the news about getting dogs trained to make them better at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted March 8, 2001 Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 That is the way it should be. In the club near me they teach the older methods, and have a guide for instructors to follow telling how each exercise needs to be taught and on what week. Most of the instructors will not allow any treats at all in class. First day, generally work on heeling. Instructions: If your dog is forging ahead, jerk, lagging, jerk, pulling in any direction other than next to handler's side, then more jerks. This was supposed to be followed by praise, but in my opinion, the poor dogs basically have to put up with so many jerks before they even have a clue of what is expected of them. I taught my first border collie with treats, without a collar, like you said, as a little puppy she did beautiful sits, heeling, downs, etc. She liked it, and wasn't worried about getting jerked. The problem I saw most with these collars is that too many inexperienced people get them for quicker training results, or a quick fix on a problem. I see them left on dogs for regular collars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cholla Posted March 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 Wow, that sounds rough. In our club each teacher(all volonteer members) get to train as they wish. Some go to seminars and at the monthly meeting explain what they learned and what they could use from it in their own dogs and at class. All read up on the latest in training and use what we want. We put on one three day agility show, one two day obedience one and help the local conformation club put on the obedience part of their four day show. The public is left to decide if to train all with treats, some, or not at all, it does not matter in the classes. Some of our members are very competitive and show but most just like to train. People come from far away to train here because some of our teachers are very good. One qualified for the 65 best obedience dogs in the nation to go to the Houston invitational two years ago. Club members have all kinds of breeds they show but few have border collies. They like their breeds of choice and don't want to win bad enough to change on the chance they may do better yet. Around here there are not that many people to get interesed in dogs, so we are talking small numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cholla Posted March 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 Oh, I forgot: First day not so much on heeling but on control. Heeling is used as a release from control. Inci had a great take a few posts ago on the worst problem of pet dogs was that people, on the idea of letting a dog be himself, were letting them be out of control. If you theach a puppy to control himself right away(a little at a time) you will have a dog that listens for life. Puppies are so cute it is hard not to spoil them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borderkatahdin Posted March 8, 2001 Report Share Posted March 8, 2001 I used to teach at the place I described, and tried to change some things, towards more treats. There were too many old school teachers running the place. I hope eventually it will change to a place more like the one near you. I ended up quitting the teaching, as I didn't believe in what I was supposed to be teaching them. I haven't been there for a year, so who knows , hopefully some of the teachers will change to motivational training over time. ------------------ Wendy Carlson Goldenoaks Farm carlson@qcconnect.com Aledo, IL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.