Rebecca Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 Cody, my 15 month old male border collie continues to nip at me when I run beside him in agility class. He'll jump up and grab my sleeve or nip at my feet. I'm actually afraid almost to run beside him because of this. Nobody seems to know how to stop this. I could of course use a pretty harsh correction to make him stop and maybe that's what it will take. But thats hard to do on the field when the instructors want only praise. And yes I suppose I could do it at home and correct him. Any advice as far as the agility work goes? He loves being out there. Namaste' Cindy and Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanea Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 Rebecca, I would strongly reprimand with the "Off" command for putting his mouth on anything he shouldn't be... that includes anything attached to my body. Immediately tell him that he did right as soon as it stops, just like you would a puppy (which he still is acting like). IF you feel uncomfortable in front of the trainers, practice at home...although I would doubt trainers would look down on verbally communicating displeasure at something a dog is doing. Positive training is being taken waaaay too much to an extreme, if you are hesitating to let the dog know when something ISN'T right. Just don't be angry after, don't hold a grudge..short and to the point. (And of course, be consistent) ------------------ humble at heart... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca Posted January 24, 2001 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Doesn't seem to work. He's so excited that I think he just temporarily loses his mind. I mean he stops when I say "off" and then will just do it again on the next run. And yes I am hesitant to go much beyond that in class. At home I tried a water bottle spray in the face, but all that did was keep him at a distance and not close enough to do the jumps, etc. If I correct too harshly, will that keep him from "wanting" to work for me? I'm being torn between two different philosophies, and my class philosophy just doesn't seem to be working. For example, I wanted to train without treats and I was told no. But I want my dogs to work because I tell them to, not because there is a treat. I may reward them at the end of the morning, but not after every 5 minutes. Just wanted to hear from someone else in agility with a border collie. These are my first dogs and my first experience training. Boy what all I need to learn! I am so grateful for this board. Namaste' Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 You are absolutely right. He is too excited and he is sort of losing his mind. At least, if it is anything like the seemingly random lunging problem Solo used to have (and still has in very highly charged situations). You have to remember that Border Collies are all about control. When Solo becomes overstimulated, he goes into a "zone" and hard-wired behaviors (like lunging and trying to grip) kind of bloop out of him. It doesn't seem entirely conscious and corrections do nothing to modify the behavior. Think of it this way: dogs are all about context. If it starts changing too fast, they no longer have a comfortable rule structure or perspective. Imagine you are sitting in a train terminal in a foreign country where you don't speak the language, reading a book quietly while everyone around you does much the same. All of a sudden everyone starts running around and yelling and you have no idea what the hell is going on. How would you feel? This is probably how dogs feel a lot of the time. Some dogs don't cope with this well. The behavior may be an expression of fear or confusion, or an actual attempt to change the context back to one he understands. Does he seem more comfortable if you stop moving? I don't think that correction is the answer here. It sounds like the class situation is a bit more than Cody can cope with right now (agility class is very exciting for a lot of dogs -- some of them react by barking a lot, Border Collies tend to have less cute reactions like lunging and nipping). I don't mean don't go to class, but in the meantime, you have to go back to square one and introduce him to the situation so that he learns the rule structure and what to expect. Work on keeping him calm when he is not running, then when other dogs are running right in front of him, then while you walk the jumps quietly, etc. With Solo I reward him for not reacting in these kinds of situations and do other things to keep him calm, like small obedience exercises (touch my hand, gimme paw, etc.) and ear massages. As Solo has become more used to the environment less effort has been necessary. I am also vigilant at agility and flyball classes and try to head him off before we get to the point of meltdown. I take him out for a pee break, or sit out a run and calm him down a bit, etc. The more you let him practice the undesirable behavior, whatever it is, the more ingrained it will get. It could be that Cody feels like he's been thrown in over his head. You have to let him get used to the situation gradually. Try being businesslike about the jumps and remaining calm and steady. He will take his cues from you. When he gets used to the routine you may be able to step it up to the kind of cheering and yelling that most agility handlers do. Personally, I am pretty careful with Solo not to let him get too excited, because then he might go into the "zone." Solo at controlled intensity is way more dog than the average Golden in all-out excitement. And I think something about Solo appreciates making the whole thing about work and not play. He's a driven dog, not very foolish, and without much of a sense of humor. Maybe Cody is the same? Finally, you mention that you want Cody to work for you, not for treats. I will introduce just two concepts. First, dogs (and all animals, including humans) work best for some kind of reward. Secondly, dogs are not abstract thinkers. They operate in the here and now, for the concrete and the tangible. "She approves of me" is not concrete or tangible; "When she looks/sounds happy, good things happen like she pats me, or throws the ball for me, or gives me treats" is. They don't think like we do -- you have to keep things simple. Cause and effect. The reward has to be something they appreciate and understand. People who train their dogs to work sheep do not use food treats, in fact many actively disparage food training, but they have the best reward to offer of all -- when the dogs do right, they get to keep working the sheep. Those of us who either cannot offer sheep or can't offer them very often have to come up with other motivations. Your dogs will be more motivated to work and to learn new things if there is something in it for them. It doesn't have to be food and it doesn't mean they don't love you. By wanting them to work "for you" and nothing else you are asking them to do things for essentially no reason (because they do not understand the abstract reasons behind why you want them to do things). "Just because" can work -- there are a lot of dogs who have been trained to do things "just because" -- but I don't think they ever really understand WHY and I don't think they love to comply with commands as much as Solo does. Would you go to work if you didn't get paid? Did you resent it when your mother told you to do the dishes, vacuum the house, and clean your room, and STILL didn't let you go out to the movies with your friends later that night? That sucked, didn't it? It is much easier to teach and maintain behaviors (sit, down, jump, stay calm as opposed to turning around and biting me) if you associate these behaviors with a simple, easy-to-understand reward. Like I said, it doesn't have to be food. Solo will work his heart out for a ball. Once the association has been made, you can fade out the reward and only give it intermittently to keep the pump primed, as it were. (This is called a variable reinforcement schedule -- slot machines work on the same principle -- you keep pulling because once in a while, you get rewarded. Abusive relationships are like this too -- people stay because once in a while, the other person is nice to them.) Solo has been clicker trained using food treats, playing ball, and praise/patting as rewards. He has a rock-solid down-stay regardless of whether I have a ball or not. The behavior is very ingrained now because it was very strongly associated with a highly-desired reward (the ball) and I think when he drops, it is almost unconscious. An example of why this is useful is that I have managed to stop potential dogfights because of this. And I didn't have a ball at those times, either. As a matter of fact, I can't think of the last time Solo willfully disobeyed me, whether I had food or a ball or not. He has been conditioned to always obey, because cool things happen when he does. Even if he doesn't get rewarded every time, he has faith that something really cool might happen next time. Here is a book recommendation: _Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson. PLEASE read this book. So many of your posts describe experiences similar to ones I've had with Solo and this book is EXCELLENT for dealing with these kinds of problems. I actually think every single dog owner should read this book. I make all of my friends with dogs read it. Solo is a patient of probably the best animal behaviorist in North America (I'm at the University of Pennsylvania, so you might be able to figure out who I'm talking about) and she recommends this book as well. It is extremely clear, enjoyable to read, and very informative. It explains why dogs do the things they do and how to deal with problem behaviors as well as train desired ones. If you do a web search you'll come up with any number of rave reviews of this book. You can order it from Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Dogwise.com. Good luck, Melanie and Solo the Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 Try standing in one place and sending your dog rather than running with him (sounds easier than it is). It will take longer to train, but he'll develop an excellent sense of obstacle discrimination. The instinct to work away from the handler is there, you just have to cultivate it. Pretend you're in herding trial and you have to stand in the handlers circle and give direction from there. When i have a border collie running full speed to complete a course, I rather not try to keep up with him when i could just yell out the next obstacle. If you have to go with him... walk! He'll probably get fed up with going slow and you can start rattling off obstacles as fast as he'll take them. Good luck, Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 Just a couple of thoughts. I do not use food or other treats to train agility, I train the dog using the same methods I use on sheep, the reward is doing agility. I have never had a problem doing this with my dogs, they are extreamly movivated, fast, learn quickly and work very hard at running the course. They also have a great time and love it. I have watched poeple who have had self motivated dogs work very hard to get the dog onto treats...often spending months modifying behavior to get the dog to take an interest in treats, I can not say that later when watching these dogs that they were paticularly happy looking and did not have stellar performances. There is this thing about border collies they love to work..I train by using this thing call loving to work. When I get a dog that is too excieted I do not let them continue in this mode, but it seldom happens if they are working and not playing. Now if they are only working for food or some other motivator I would think they would not get too excieted as their self motivation is gone. If they get too excieted I use the down..between obsticles or just randomly to get them back to thinking about what they are doing and again thinking about me as part of the team. Also I might add that a dog that goes over a jump and is then downed..can not bite you..if he is laying down. Then proceed to the next jump, and down again if too excieted. It will not take long for them to calm down and remember you are part of the picture again and as I said they can not bite you, there by breaking this habit. This also works for barking when running the course. Just my opinion and I do not train others dogs in agility just my own, but it does work and I love to watch my dogs work the course...and they love to work the course too! There was a fun course one evening at an agility trial, where the dogs where dress up in costumes for halloween, and the course was laided with food and toys.. many many dogs could not run the course as there were motivators everywhere and all they could think of is getting to the toys and food scattered all over the place. People where even throwing tennis balls. My dog never look at the treats..never even thought about them, she was focused on the course and working it...It would be no different if I was working her on sheep and started throwing tennis balls..she would not care and would not go after them, she will not take food when working sheep..she is working not playing...but at home when not working she will play with tennis balls and will certainly take food treats...it is just a way at looking at border collies and how they think. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 Just to second what Deb said -- the key to training is to find what the dog considers to be rewarding. In agility I am finding that (for certain obstacles at least -- maybe not the table, heh) what Deb is saying is absolutely correct. There are a lot of things that Solo simply seems to enjoy executing, especially jumping. I can then turn it around and ask him to down, be quiet, etc. while we are waiting our turn. Getting to go and jump is then his reward. A reward can be anything the dog wants at a particular time. For example, you tell your dog to sit before going out the door. Going out the door is his reward. (Actually, if your dog is not listening to you in general, you should be making him work for everything he wants in this way -- food, pats, fun activities, etc.) But there has to be a reward (emergencies and special cases notwithstanding -- you're not going to stand there and bounce a ball around if he's about to get hit by a truck). You CAN train your dog only through punishment/disapproval, but then you have a dog who is working to avoid punishment, not working FOR anything, and certainly not working for you. As a matter of fact, if you train this way, the most consistent association the dog makes is one between punishment and you. I think most of us don't want that. -- Melanie and Solo, AKA "Problem Dog" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 Why do you think your dog does not like the table? He does not like because he has to stop doing agility....he does not see it as part of the course. Try not stoping your dog on the table, then try jumping on and down as fast as able and then off as soon as down..make it more challenging and fast and different..how fast can you down..how fast can you jump off. Later after the dogs loves to jump on the table, loves to down and is downing as he hits the table..then once in a while ask for the stay. Don't make the stay too long. Vary the wait from none to short, to a little longer. Try doing run by's..jump then table..no wait, then to a jump. Or jump, table fast down release instantly and then to a jump. Another words add some challenge to the table..make it part of the course..something that has to be worked...something the dog see's as part of his work and not the end of doing agility. No amt. of food on a table will get the fast and driven approch to the table and instant down, as the dog who just likes to work the table. Think about your punishment model..is the table being used as punishment..is this how he see's it? But I have to say that if a dog bites me..for any reason, I will punish the dog weather we are doing agility or any other activity...it is just not acceptable and the dog needs to understand. It will not effect its motivation to work..but it will hinder his motivation to bite me..and I don't care why the dog thought this was the thing to do...I don't bite them..they don't bite me. Punishment for biting will not affect motivation to do agility. Now I am sure you can use behavior modification and never do any negative to stop a dog from biting you, if you have the time, but you can also get very good results from a no tolerance approch...and it will be quick and not damage the dog. The above dog sounds to me too just get excieted, maybe frustrated by his handlers approch and then nips her to get her moving...but I don't really care what the dog is thinking...he is not allowed to bite me. If you watch dogs interact..they will not tolerate bitting of each other either..and they will make it clear to the offender this is not tolerated. Just watch a younger dog playing with older family members, if the pup bites too hard they will let that pup know..it does not damage the pup's mental health. Ever watch an older dog tell a pup it is not time to play? Did it cause the pup to never play again? Ever watch a pup try to steal a bone from an older dog...they correct the pup, but the pup will still enjoy a bone..There are rules to life..even in dogs lives and they can be learned. Just how I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca Posted January 25, 2001 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 Thanks Evanea, Kris, Debbie and Melanie. At the moment I'm just feeling pretty overwhelmed and a little bit "out of my mind " just like Cody. I am like so in over my head. Sad for me, bad for my dogs. So, I'm back to the beginning. I think I will simply concentrate on getting a rock solid down, which I don't yet have. Don't get me wrong, my dogs are good dogs. I just want them to be able to do the agility, flyball and obedience, mainly because I want to keep them occupied at something they can enjoy. And I enjoy it too. If I can't offer them sheep, I want to give them something. The problem is that I'm having to learn at the same time that I am teaching them. Sorry to unload..frustrating day. I want so much to do right by them and everytime I turn around it seems I've screwed something else up. Debbie, you said that you correct your dogs if they bite, no matter the reason. What exactly do you do when you correct them? Thanks. Namaste' Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 "But I have to say that if a dog bites me..for any reason, I will punish the dog weather we are doing agility or any other activity...it is just not acceptable and the dog needs to understand. It will not effect its motivation to work..but it will hinder his motivation to bite me..and I don't care why the dog thought this was the thing to do...I don't bite them..they don't bite me." Obviously the dog in this situation does not understand, because punishments have not worked and he is still nipping. I think that it is important for the owner to understand (we are the smarter ones, after all) what the motivation for nipping is in a given situation. Often, punishing the nip will not remove the underlying motivation. Then you've created a time bomb. Far better to remove the motivation as possible. The original poster describes nipping as the main problem of concern, but it seems like the larger problem is that the dog is so excited that he "seems out of his mind." This is obviously not a condition that is conducive to being a successful agility dog. I merely suggested that addressing the basal cause for the undesirable behavior might be effective. Lots of people overeat because they are depressed. To fix the overeating, they could embark on any number of punitive or restrictive diets, but ultimately the most successful solution would be to seek treatment for the depression. This would deliver the most positive and long-lasting results. Likewise if a dog is nipping or biting out of fear. Punishing the nip in these situations will make the problem worse because along with the dog being afraid of strangers/men in hats/other dogs to the extent that he feels like he must defend himself, the added association is made that in these situations, his beloved owner turns on him as well. You can't treat fear by punishing fear. Punishments that are aversive enough might inhibit the nipping/biting behaviors, but they will not remove the motivation and in fact increase the likelihood that when the dog's threshold is finally pushed beyond his limit, the resulting bite will be very bad. Another time bomb. I do use corrections with my dog, but I reserve them for when he is willfully disobeying me. "Forget it, I just don't feel like sitting right now." I do not use capital punishment and I always give Solo the option to do the right thing. Bill Fosher has written about this approach in another thread. Normally a sharp "hey!" or stomped foot is enough to get Solo's attention. But like I said, I can't remember the last time he willfully disobeyed me. And actually, dogs bite each other all the time. Rarely do they cause harm (and when they do, that IS pathological) -- but watch dogs interact and they will nip, they will snap, they will make ugly faces at each other and all still be friends at the end of the day. It is normal dog language. It is a natural behavior that we find offensive. As with other such behaviors, training is necessary to change it. I think that training can be more effective if we explain a little bit of "why" to our dogs and give our dogs other options instead of just saying "no" and leaving it at that. I have a fear aggressive dog. He is not at all submissive and he is very physical. This dog has never once nipped at or otherwise physically threatened me. He is extremely obedient. I have used methods recommended by our excellent behaviorist (who has both a VMD and a PhD and has cured any number of dogs of any number of problem behaviors so I certainly hope she knows something about dog behavior) and by the positive training club we go to as well as ones drawn from all the reading I've done since adopting him. My dog is also extremely reactive and yet we are able to participate in obedience, agility, and flyball. I realize that bashing positive training methods is in vogue, and that it is easier to simply yank or yell or slap a prong collar on a dog. All I am trying to say is that if you are interested and willing to put in the effort, these methods work well, and that I am not making them up out of whole cloth -- there is a lot of very sound science and practice behind them. Good luck to the original poster, whatever training methods you choose. -- Melanie and Solo the Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Posted January 26, 2001 Report Share Posted January 26, 2001 This is always difficult to tell someone when you can not see what is happening. But think of one thing..you know this dog has this behavior...so you can anticipate it will happen and you most likely know when it is going to happen. Try to be prepared and stop it before it happens..using the down...but if the dog refuses to down and keeps coming I would have to see the dog to advise you. It might be a simple loud HEY YOU NO! The thing is you have to get it out before the dog takes action...I have heard myself say "don't even think about it" and this is before the dog actually was starting the behavior but prepareing to to do it. Does that make sense? Another words anticipate the behavior and stop it before it happens. I agree that he is likely too excieted.. and you can work on downs..but also think about letting the dog move at his own rate a little..this relieve pressure...he may be feeling you don't move fast enough or don't tell him soon enough where to go..but at any rate he can not bite you because you have failed him somehow and he has these feelings. Set up short runs like a figure eight with a tunnel at both ends and weave poles in the center..keep it rather close together, this will allow the dog to go as fast as he can and you do not really have to run to keep up. It also requires thinking on his part as the tunnels will build speed but then those stincky weave poles are right there and have to be done correctly...you could also stand out of the direct route he needs to follow..then if he heads for you to bite..he is out of line and down him and say no before he gets to you. I think if you look at what the dog has been doing and how he has been sucsessful at bitting you..then devise ways to make it easier for you to see it coming and stop him before he does it. I think if you try a few of these types of things and just be very aware before you set out..where and when he will try this and stop it before it happens he will quickly decide not to do it. Also are your trainers use to working with fast moving dogs, I have seen a lot of BC get very frustrated by handling methods that work great on dogs that follow the handler around, but are usless on fast moving dogs that often work well ahead of their handlers. BTW these types of trainers will say..you need to slow your dog down...WRONG! When I am working with a younger dog that really wants to go and I can not keep up and the dog does not have enough training to be working out three or four things ahead of me, I build very convoluted courses....that allow me to keep up but not slow down the dog. Just as the figure 8 above you can build courses that allow the dog to go fast but still stay in your area. Think of a jumping circle for one, you simple handle from the inside but the dog goes back and forth over the jumps all the way around, he goes 4 times to your one. Your timing will most like need to be increase, think about what is next not what you are doing ..I find this the hardest thing to get right, you have to keep the dog correct but also be leading for the next thing. I often am calling the next thing just as they have commited to the one proceeding it. I find if I consentrate on where I am going and let the dog work the equipment and my main purpose is to guide the way we have better runs. In the figure 8 above as the dog is coming to the exit of the tunnel (still inside) you need to be saying weave and all body language pointing to the weaves. If you wait for him to come out and then say weaves it is too late..he moving very fast and needs to know when he is exsiting the tunnel where he is to go. Don't dispare this can be corrected and will not be difficulte once you find the solution, but you are right to stop it now before it really becomes a habit. You just need a good trainer that has delt with with very fast and motivated dogs. What part of the counrty are you in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca Posted January 26, 2001 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2001 I'm in Alabama and today's a better day. I'm going to just slow down, and take it one step at a time. Thanks again to everyone. Have a great weekend. Namaste' Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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