Guest Charles Torre Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 The subject is not that I want to buy some sheep, but how to help my dog find them when they are really far away. I am sure this has been asked many times, but the archives are pretty thin these days. I hope you will take pity on me and discuss it anyway. The place I like to train at large distances is about 300 x 500 yards in size - maybe bigger, and it has gently rolling hills, a few ravines, some trees, a variety of grass, sage, etc. It's very easy for my sheep to blend into the scenery at 400+ yards. I have a hard time finding them sometimes. We (the dog and I) always manage to get them rounded up and fetched eventually, possibly after several clumsy redirects. So the dog is sloooooowly learning to let me help it find the sheep. But what can I do to help the dog find the sheep with the minimum of help from me? charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 01-08-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Charlie, I don't know if this subject was ever discussed before,I don't think I have come across it in the past. You ask how to get your dog to seek out sheep (regardless of the distance). Let me see if I can explain this properly. It's about walking a very fine line where you want the dog to learn "how to go out there and find sheep" vs. "how he gets there". Which do you worry about? Perfect pear? or apple? Dogs who are used to go distances looking for sheep don't necessarily run the most perfect pear shaped outruns. They have a tendency to run too wide or too tight only because they are so used to "looking/spotting" ,only to correct themselves once they spot. Hence most ranch/farm dogs who were not trained to run trials on the side and their miserable performances on the fields by losing major points from the beginning. Perhaps Bill G. will jump in and tell you about his hill dog and how hard it is to tune them to work few heads. Longer distances they go,more confident beasts they are and that shows up as unmanageable in smaller areas. You are in a better position with your dog though. You may end up redirecting your dog few times but at least you're not butting heads for controls. Best you can do,is to walk out there with your dog without giving much input to find sheep. Once your dog sees them (regardless of the distance),start walking back and let the dog fetch them. Any time you'll interfere on directional commands,you are taking out confidence to go further and not only to go so far away,also in the ability to lift properly. Some dogs really lose heart and it ends up being a chase back race all the way to your feet. With this kind of exercise,you can eventually let the dog go out there and search out the sheep. Something else we may have overlook,these dogs,supposedly, have an enormous nose to track them even if they are not on sight. I've tried this on my other dogs after witnessing Indy. It was about 6 years ago when she was younger. It was time to grain feed the ewes with lambs on their sides,the field where I've kept them is hills after hills and no way of knowing who's where. I send Indy to gather them,she wouldn't budge. She kept looking at me as if I just lost my marbles. After about 5 minutes,she left my side and started barreling towards the neighbours alfalfa field. We have 8 wire electric fence between us and Indy was zapped enough times to knew not to jump it. I waited and waited and waited. No sign of Indy or sheep. I kept whistling her recall and still no sign of her. I decided to walk towards where she left thinking just maybe she looped around and headed back home. After walking all the way to the end of our field,I saw huge dead tree lying across the fence and had taken out about 15 ft of it down and that was enough to give sheep an open gate to better greens. That field is about 160 acres,no fences and very long,so I thought maybe I should walk back home and jump into Jeep and go for sheep and Indy search. Halfway throught the field,I heard the rumbling and man! they were running at full speed (ewes and lambs)with a little very black dog behind them. That just blew my mind but I wanted to know how on earth she knew where they were. Now,with my other dogs,I hide sheep and let them go find them. At the beginnings,young dogs fail,especially when I work them at times where I know sheep are laying low where missing them is almost definite act. When they miss,I walk out with them until we are on top of sheep.They get quite embarrassed but eventually they learn to look instead of coming back empty handed or look to me for directions. I'm still trying to see if any other dog could pick scent and search but never had the similar set up to make me a true believer but hearing all the hill dogs tales,some shepherds swears they could. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Despite Inci's signature saying about "removing all doubt", I'm going to ask a question or two, because I'm confused (again). And because I don't mind appearing a fool. Inci, were you saying that a wider rounder outrun is a good thing for certain types of work, like spotting & gathering in large uneven areas? Would a tighter more pear-shaped outrun be better even in that type of work? Or is it only better when the stock is gathered in one (known) place? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Pairdog, The fool is me..not meant for anyone else. You've asked: >>were you saying that a wider rounder outrun is a good thing for certain types of work, like spotting & gathering in large uneven areas?<<< I'm not saying it is good or better. And it does depend on terrain somewhat but mainly,the dog is out looking and starts somewhere when there isn't anything in site. One of my dog,Rex,who started out as a distance worker from a puppyhood is now running very wide (apple) to find sheep here at home. In trials,he'll go as far as the fence line if it's there. Another dog of mine,Jim was always a tight running youngster and when he has to search/find sheep,he'll almost leave straight up,looking both sides whereas Rex will look ahead and inward. When they are out gathering from many different pockets of sheep,Rex always comes back with all,whereas Jim will miss out few. In trials,Rex is known to lose 5-7 points on his outruns vs.Jim may lose a point or two. In real work situations,personally,I prefer to work with Rex even though both goes out looking rather than rely on me for a redirect. So,cannot really say which is better for everyone else's situations. Does this makes any sense? ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Thanks Inci. Yes, it makes perfect sense. I guess it just rubs me wrong somehow that what can be a positive quality in work is penalized in trialing. I would think the time lost would be penalty enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Pairdog, I wish I could say it is positive but in reality,it isn't. Rex is used to home grounds and knows the boundaries. What happens when he's taken out of his home grounds? There lies the biggest fault on him. what if we were in a vast open places where there are no boundaries? Just to pull him in on his outrun,I run out of spit to blow that darn whistle while he insists on going and finding sheep. Trials (Open class) are based upon real work,it just judged by an experienced stock and stockdog person. I could jump and down and tell him he does good at home,trials judges dogs and handler at every step and under very many circumstances. Therefore,he's penalized right in my book. Don't get me wrong though,if I'm ever in trouble,I always know he's covering my behind. To me,he's worth a lot as a farm dog. He's just not a trials dog in the highly competitive terms,i.e. I wouldn't hold my breath to come home with the first place check with him but we'll always finish the course. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Well, this isn?t exactly about ?gathering the park?, but kinda? Inci asked if I?d chime in with my ?hill dog? stories?and having just decided that I wasn?t going another winter and lambing with the Ramboulliets, I?ve got a recent example about ?outruns?. I?ve got a series of gates and pens that I can sort sheep into when I want to pick and choose a few ? in this case I had a couple dozen ?dirty faced? ewes and lambs I wanted to take to market. So I started out gathering them all into the first pen, sorting a few into the second pen, sorting more out into the 3rd pen, and then moving the ?selected? ones either into the back pasture or the loading area. Walking back and forth and opening and closing gates took a bit of time, but it?s a real safe and relatively stress free way to sort out certain stock. Anyway, Roy quite enjoys this sort of work ? he?s much like a rugby player ? he LIKES contact with big sheep and his favorite expression is ?Make my day.? So we went along for awhile until I realized that I had promised my wife I would help her at the shop ? and had less time than I thought. So I stopped closing the back gates separating the ?sorted? ewes from the ?in process? ewes. I would open one gate and the big Rambo ladies would take off hell bent for the big group in the back pasture. I do mean BIG ? these ladies averaged 174# at market. And anyone who has seen these sheep accelerate know that they test quarter horses. Well, Roy would be in an earlier sorting area, I would have to open the gate to let the Rambos out, walk about 20 yards, open another gate and let Roy go. After a couple of times, he waited tongue out, drooling, ears in his evil devil ?squink? and full of excitement. Roy had about 75 yards to stop a full grown, 175#, fully charging Ramboulliet ewe ? who was headed for safety. Needless to say, a ?pear shaped? outrun was NOT the tool of the day. Roy would shoot directly past the ewe, nearly touching her (and sometimes I think actually hitting her, so she ?knew? he was there), cut directly in front of the ewe, and almost always without contact ? stop her dead in her tracks. Sometimes so fast the ewe would literally trip head over heels with no contact ? just a ?stop on a dime?. And then she?d head back to the loading area like a good woolie. This is the same dog that clears the hill with no problem, running as wide as necessary to gather everything in sight. This isn?t my training, by the way, it is his experience in being raised in an environment where he was worked on 3000 ewes on rough country ? get the job done, run wherever you need to, push the reluctant ones and stop scuttering about? Without a variety of work, I think the dogs cannot develop into the natural workers they truly can be?training and drilling for trials is a good thing, and necessary, and is a good way to exhibit the dog?s skills to a variety of people under a variety of conditions, but trials alone will not develop a good dog to the best of it?s abilities.. As farm work alone will not develop a dog to the best of its abilities. Widening and shortening outruns is a basic skill ? as you?ve found out, Charlie, you need to teach it?walking out with the dog and making darn certain that EVERY SINGLE ewe is gathered - every single time ? is terribly important?no excuses. Then you?ll have to figure out how to bring him in when he?s running too wide? Oh, and the last trial I ran in, Roy decided he'd go under a fence and clear the woods - I thought for sure I'd lost a bunch of points - but Arthur Roberts, the judge, only docked 1 point - later telling me how much he liked a dog that covered that much territory looking for it's sheep...with that terrain, it was a "proper thing". ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Those are great illustrations guys, thanks! My dog loves to do exactly as Bill described, run a straight line full speed right next to them brushing them to "let them know she's there". Then she comes around and settles down real nice. We've been working on widening her out, but she still feels she needs to remind them quite often. She does better after she runs some of the vinegar out of her. It's also good to know that judges will adapt their scoring sometimes, because I still don't understand the reason for preferring a particular shape of outrun. I don't question the judges' expertise, I know they know what they're doing -- I just would like to understand the reason for the preference, if it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 Hide them up close first. Teach look back to find them. Keep giving the look back when they don't look far enough. So far it's worked. They look farther and farther afield with each look back. I use "look" for finding. "Look back" for look for what's behid you. An excited "look" everytime you are about to start a session will get them looking when the sheep are farther away. They'll key in on the "look" after that and the "back" part will then come naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Good advice, John. Although I use "see sheep" when walking to the post... Pairdog - in an open field, the dog still needs to not disturb the sheep, right? My story was only to show that a good dog can adapt to the situation...and just wants to get the job done. The problem comes in when that same dog, on a trial field, wants to "just get the job done" and can't understand why he's not supposed to move them at full gallop so we can get on to the next thing... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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