mckaycanada Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Okay, I have an 18 month old bitch who is a slightly timid but keen with moderate eye. I've started working her about a month ago and she wears, outruns to about 60 yards, doesn't cross over (much). She works a bit close but doesn't unsettle the sheep. Solid stop and recall, verbal outside flanks. Good balance and doesn't spill the sheep. What's next? Inside flanks and drive? Lengthen the outrun? I just muddled through with the last dog and this time and I'm wondering if anyone out there has thought through a "natural order"? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 4, 2003 Report Share Posted January 4, 2003 Hey John - "That depends". Is she still excited about learning? How does she take to drilling? In my mind, that's a critical time you're talking about - one when it's easy to take the fun away from the dog by pushing too hard, but also easy for the dog to get bored with NOT learing... Also make sure they have plenty of chances for "natural" work when you move on - that's the balance stuff Thad talked about, pressure free gathering, etc... If the dog WANTS to move on, I would start working on inside flanks - without a bunch of pressure at first - just to see how she responds... Make any sense? Regardless of how she's responding to the drilling and practice, I'd get her on whistles now...that can be done prety easy and naturally with what you've done already... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 01-04-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted January 5, 2003 Report Share Posted January 5, 2003 When I started out I was surprised at how early you can put your dog onto whistles. I was also surprised at how early you can start the separation (shed) with a young dog, by splitting the flock really wide and calling the dog through as in a game. This should be relatively easy if the dog does indeed have a good recall.It makes it easier later for the dog to feel comfortable about coming through. Is your dog driving? How about introducing a bit of that? However if he is crossing over AT ALL at 60 yards, don't lengthen the outrun until the current distance is easy for him and the stop at the top is always in perfect balance. If you can, change the field so the draws are different.Perhaps create draws for you and your dog to practise on. Ask a friend to hold the sheep so he gets used to someone else being there (if you want to go onto trialling). Don't be in too much of a hurry to move on...get the moves absolutely right now. And do have some fun with him...we often end our training with lots of runs around the sheep as I scatter them, leaving him to pick the direction and run like a release..;and it's great for doing pull-ins. Cheers Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newguy Posted January 6, 2003 Report Share Posted January 6, 2003 John Take a look at the dog and decide what is the worst thing you see. I always train outrun lift and fetch. When the dog can do a consistant 200meter outrun lift and fetch i move on to the drive. Always remember to be honest in your opinion of your dog. A small problem at home will be a huge problem at a trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted January 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2003 I think her current faults include being a bit tight at the top end and crossing over every once in a while. I'm going to do some reverse outruns to widen her at the top and stretch out the distance a bit. This is well within her comfort zone right now. Only problem is I'll need some daylight. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Newguy's advice certainly jibes with what I've heard (and, to a very limited extent, experienced). I have a puppy that I will start next summer and I intend to make him 100% perfect on the "instinct work" (outrun, lift, fetch) up to about 200 yards, before I start him on "mechanical work" (e.g., driving). Because of my training situation/inadequacies with my first dog I ended up getting her going on driving before the instinct work was truly in the bag (I thought she had that stuff down, but I was very wrong.). Not only was it hell to get her to drive properly since she didn't really have the tools I thought she did, I ended up with a dog that could drive pretty well but would often blow the lift. Fortunately, I've fixed most of that (famous last words). I think that Bruce Fogt's book has a nice training timeline that he uses. Of course, every dog is different so one can't carve any of these rules in stone, but they are good guidelines in my (truly) humble opinion. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Ah Charlie - ever had a dog that was a natural driver? When you do have one, you'll change your mind about calling driving "mechanical work"...some dogs will take to driving very easily, and keep a straight line pert near right off the bat... But your points were well said anyway... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Fair enough, Bill. I was certainly speaking in generalities. I must admit, I stole that "instinct" & "mechanical" terminology lock, stock and barrel from Elvin Kopp. (Obviously, that guy has made quite an impression on me.) charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Well, Elvin's certainly one of the good 'uns...mentoring on him is a good thing. As you know, knowing your dog is the key to doing any of this silly stuff...a "line" dog is going to take to training different from a "defensive" dog, etc... In the last few years I've taken a look at the "mechanical" dog designation and decided that in most cases (traditional herding mind you, not akc "obedience" herding) that most "mechanical" dogs aren't...they are just used to being handled that way and sometimes simply don't know when to be allowed to work - and I do understand your use of the word "mechanical" for driving, but just wanted to point out that for some dogs - it isn't...anyway, another discussion I guess... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest newguy Posted January 9, 2003 Report Share Posted January 9, 2003 I think that saying that a drive is mechanical is the wrong word. If a dog is taught to move stock from point a to point b then it does not matter if it is on a drive or fetch. The dog learns the difference between the two. What we are trying to teach the dog is to control and move stock. A dog that is relaxed and knows his job will move stock on the fetch the same as on the drive. The difference comes into play when you tell the dog how to drive instead of teaching the dog. It is late and i am rambling. But it makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.