OT- horses and cattle

[Guest KillerH]

This is slightly off topic-- but I thought I might find someone who could confab with me.

 

I have a green horse that I am useing on the cattle(plan on adding a dog to the mix soon).

I am not new to horses or cattle--- but I am a greenhorn at mixing the two(and then hopefully three).

 

The horse started out fine(about two months now- on cattle couple times a week)- I learned real quick that he has some stock instincts. He started by locking his eyes and getting an "attitude" when around them. He actually does a little freelance "cutting" on his own, when he gets the opportuntity.

 

We are gathering 80 head of 600-800 lb freshcut bulls out of a very overgrown "cut up" 60 acre area.

Which means we'll pick up a group move it foreward(which he liked)Then pull off(which he hated) and gather another group. Over and over-- till they are all heading the right dirrection.

We also were cutting the sick cattle out of the pen and he was just fine being totally surrounded by the cattle.

 

Now the problem-This last week-- He has turned into a monster! He is attacking the cattle, ears back, charging them, biting them. I have to force him to turn away from them(bucking and kicking). And this- from the most docile horse I ever broke!

 

So far(three times) just trying to work him thru it has not had any obvious results. He just gets more wound up(major adrenilin ride!)

 

PS- it coincidently has cooled down too.

 

Till I get this fixed I can't put a dog in!

But, I don't want to take away All his interest in the cattle.

[Cowsavy]

I have two questions, One is the only palce you use this horse on cattle? Two are you doing this at a slow pace or just going at it full blast. It sounds to me that you are getting excited when you are moving the cattle and the horse is picking this up.I use horses and dogs on cattle all the time and never had this problem. Personally I don't like a horse that backs his ears at cattle. I like one that watches and pays attention and moves with the cattle. One that shows agression is most likely chargey and will loose a lot of cattle. I always start a young horse in a small pasture just walking through cattle. I try and get him to move through them without exciting any of the cattle, which sometimes is hard to do at first. Some will and some won't. I never let mine run cattle. My rope horses I may spend a couple of hrs following an old slow cow in the pasture at a walk. I try to set him up in a roping position and keep him there. If the cow stops to graze I stop and wate for her to move,when she does we move. When the colt learns his position I move up to a little faster cow, then so on till he will position himself right every time.Trying to go to fast on a horse will only make him hiper and excited around cows. I know everyone wants a colt to become a cowhorse in 15 min but to have a good one it takes a lot of time. As far as introducing the dogs to a horse I do this by just trail riding my horse and letting the dogs go. I watch the dogs and keep them behind my horse being careful not to let them bite the horse. The first few times I go at a walk. If you really want a good ride turn out about 8 black mouth curs that haven't been introduced to a horse and take off in a run. You will get the ride of your life. But if you just ride slow till they get used to being with you and the horse, then speed up alittle till the dogs catch on to what you want. Then you can ride on cattle and put the dogs on them and they will quickly pick up on the cattle. I can ride my horse with my cur dogs through any heard of cattle and never disturb them. They won't bark at cattle till I put them on them. I can seperate the one I want and send my dogs to stop it and then I can ride up rope it and back my dogs off. I use curs to find and hold cattle and My Border Collies to bring them in. Just remember if you do things slow and easy to start,give both horse and dog time to learn things will go better in the end resust and will last a lot longer with out a blow up. No it is not to late to start all over and do it right. I have took barrell horses and made reliable cow horse out of it is never too late to start over. Ues comon since in your training. Think how you would train a 2yo kid to do this and it is basicly the same. You wouldn't set a 2yo kid in a car and tell him to drive a 100 mph would you and thats the same as training any animal. Show him what you want at a pase he can comprehend then speed up after he knows what to do.

[Guest KillerH]

We trail ride some(he'lll go anywhere) and I am working on some basic dressage with him.

Hes flat and falls in to the right.

I reread my first post and to clarify, I have had him for 6 months- just been on cattle for two.

 

As for getting excited and going full bore- not on my place- we rarely get out of a walk when we are moving the calves.

 

All I can come up with is that he has gotten frustrated with being pulled off calves he has locked on to- to go get another set.I knew it bothered him but I figured he'd get used to it.

 

Describe what you mean by "chargey"-- He has laid back his ears and even bit a calf(that wouldn't move) from the first exposure.

Maybe what I took as "good instincts" was not as good a sign as I thought.

 

Karen

[ikw]

Can't help you Karen but wanted to find out about the dog who were searching. Did you ever track him?

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

[Guest KillerH]

Hi Inci-

 

Yeah- but so far it has turned out to be a mute point. Leah is not cycling right anymore.

I found a dog out of my lines that I got- so far he is showing some promise- and I don't have to wait for puppies to grow up! Better deal all around.

 

Karen

[Cowsavy]

By Chargy I mean he wants to rush in on cattle instead of staying his distance where he can control them. The same as a cattle dog getting too close and losing his stock. Don't give up on him yet. He may still make a good cow horse. If I had him I would ride him in cattle as much as I could. I wouldn't work cattle on him till I had him where it did not bother him to just walk through a bunch of cattle. I like to just check cattle on my colts for a while, by this I mean just a slow walk out to the pasture and ease through the cattle maby stoping close to a cow and just let him stand. If he is like you say hipper around them I would either lope him or drag something till he was a little tired then I would lope him as close to the cattle as I could then drop him down to a slow walk and ease up to the cattle as close as I could, (just before he starts to perk up) there I would stop him and let him rest a few min. If he did get excited I would work him some more away form the cattle. If you work him hard enough away from the cattle then go to the cattle or close as you can then let him rest as long as he stands. When he moves on his own go back and work some more. Bleave me it won't take but a few times till he figeres out that if he hippers up he is going to have to go to work and soon he will drop his head and move aroung cattle quitely, This works for many things so use it. This is the only method out of many that I have ever had sussess with in teaching my horses to grown tie. Remember common since trains and if they figer it out on their own it is all the better. I use a drag for this but don't recomend it if you don't have your horse prepared for it. Riding will do the same just takes a little longer. This also works great for a barn sour horse. Just let him go back to the barn and then work the hound out of him. Won't be long before he wants to get away form the barn on his own.Read between the lines, think and then cure your problems. I trained the old way for a long time and never had a real good horse (with whip and stick) Now I have learned form my mistakes and have some really good horses that have never had a hand laid on them. You just have to think.

[Guest KillerH]

Thanks- I like the idea of what you suggested. will give it a try this afternoon.

Might have trouble getting to a place where we could lope safely-- in a timely manner.

But maybe he'll still make the connection.

 

I have tried leaving and just trail riding till he settles down then go back- no great improvement. I think now what I was missing was the tiring him out part.

 

Might just now be becoming a problem because of the weather change. At 85 to 90 hes probably got the edge off him before we ever get to the calves. At 65 hes still fresh.

 

I may just to give me an edge-- go back to riding or lungeing him for awhile before we ever go to the calves.

 

Any suggestions about how to handle his aggravation at being prevented from locking his eyes on to the calves? Even pre-monster stage- just walking around them it was a chore to keep him from locking his eyes on to them.

 

Karen

[Cowsavy]

I think that problem will be solved when he associates the cattle with a place to rest and calm down. May not but lets hope it does.Now I saw you mentioned a safe place to lope your horse. Your horse should be able to run full speed on most any grown and handle himself. But first you have to prepare for this. I do this by riding my horse in cut over ( where a logging crew has clear cut acrage) I start out at a walk and cross anything I know he can. When he learns to pickup his feet and quits stumbling over things, I pick him up to a trot and go over the same stuff. When I feel he is ready I lope him through it. What I am doing is learning him to pay attention to the ground he is travling over. Here we catch a lot of bad cattle and have to run full speed through woods, swamps, and all types of ground. It is important for me to trust my horse. My horses are very sure footed. Some have it natural some you have to prepare. I prepare all of mine, because I hate wrecks.Most folks don't have any idea what a horse can do. I spend most of my time riding in woods and ruff grown. A three legged horse should be able to hop along on flat grown. Give a horse a chance prepare him for anything you think you mite ever encounter.Never go around anything you may have to cross later start slow and work you speed up. Cattle here will hit water in the summer time. Which means I may have to go out after them. I know I can because I prepare him for this. Warning Never go in water with tie down on or roping reins. If the horse gets a let hung in the reins or tie down he will pull his head under and possibally drown you and him. I never use a tiedown on my horses but I do use roping reins but I cut them in the middle and tie them together with a small cotton string. that way if he does catch a foot in them they will break apart. Hope some of this will help you make a good horse. If you have a place to trail ride him before you go to cattle that is good too you just want him a little tired or to the point where he wants to rest. Any way you do this is ok just so he is tired. I have rode one all day on trails and then took him to cattle and let him stand 4 or 5 min then ride him off and go put him up. The plan is to just show him that he can rest around cattle. Just remember if he gets hipper when he see's cattle you ain't rode him down enough. Grab a jar of vacaline and ride some more lol

[Guest KillerH]

Thanks you've helped alot!

 

I guess I might have to get past my "high dollar" background with horses. I would never have thought of going fast on rough ground.

My horse is definetly not ready for it yet- not sure I am either! He still trips over terraces- hidden in the grass(well truth be told, its weeds)

 

PS- What happened to all the tree limbs where you ride? My horse is short and we still have to duck and dive to avoid getting me swiped.

 

Thanks again

Karen

[Guest KillerH]

Took the horse out this afternoon. He did fine by the end.

 

We walked up to the calves and he took a dive at them. I pulled him off and went for a lope and then worked on his latteral flexion for a while- then went back. He rushed them again and we went for another lateral flexion lesson . By the third time he was back to his old self- although we didn't move any this time we just walked around them.

 

He is still fighting me about locking on to them. May in a little while try loping him down every time he insists on turning back into the cattle after I have turned him away. One thing at a time for now.

 

Thanks again- I feel much better about how to deal with this now.

 

Karen

[brookcove]

I used to live out west, in California - the woods there are mostly old growth - your horse would have to be about forty feet tall to hit overhanging tree limbs. What was underfoot was the scary part! I used to ride with a girl who competed in the Tevis (100 mile endurance race) and we'd gallop (I really mean gallop) up and down gullies and over fallen trash - the scariest was the extremely steep grassy hillsides where you could slip or trip over unseen things in the grass and roll over the cliff into the sea. She would slow down to a lope there. My horse was a former competitor too - I was just along for the rides - big lesson in trust. Just like now with my dog! Seems I'd start getting used to that feeling - or do something about it!

 

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Rebecca

Brook Cove Farm, NC

[Cowsavy]

You watch for the limbs. Let the horse watch for his footing. What you want is ruff footing not limbs 8ft high. Just rember a horse hates to fall as much or more than you do. Most people ride in an arena or on a road and a horse don't have to watch where they step. I have seen horses that have fallen over a small rock on a perfectly good road. Why? First the rider was just sitting on the horse letting it go to sleep walking down the road or at least day dreaming. If a horse day dreams. Second the horse has never had to watch where he steps. I have seen a couple of bad wrecks because of this. This can easly be prevented by keeping the horse alert. Don't just follow along do some turns and ziz zaz up the road. Teach him something every time you ride him. I have had people sitting on their horse and tell me I just don't have time to train him. Heck if you have 3 min to ride him you have 3 min of training time use it.On a evening trail ride I will work on turns stops, drag a log, cross ditches, hop up banks, anything that I can think of. I may turn around and back my horse a few hundred yards yes, he can do this most of my horses can back as fast as most horses walk and as long as I want them to. Why because I don't stop with just a 10 ft backup if he backs 10 ft the next day I ask for 12 and so on. Out of all the hundreds of horses I have seen on trail rides I don't remember a one that could move quick enough to get out of the way of a vehicle if it had to. I work on this all the time, it would take a pretty tight spot and a fast car before it got my horse. We hope this never happens but why wate and see, Know you horse will move and move quick. Know he will jump a ditch or up a bank or down a bank. This is like the seat belt in you car a safty device for you and the horse. Have one que that puts full attention of you and do this in a way that the horse trusts you and responds no matter what. Then you have a dang good horse that is safe to ride. good luck and wish you well with your horse. If I can help you can reach me at Cowsavy@aol.com

[Guest KillerH]

Cowsavy-

 

Things have been going very well

 

We still aren't lopeing around everywhere- but we have moved up to an easy trot. The trees are still a major impedence(for me) for anything faster.

He is still locking his eyes but is learning not to fight me when I turn him away(if he does we trot circles for awhile).

His attitude was a 180 after I loped him down; just a few times; for getting excited around the cattle. Hes back to his old self, and hopefully on the way to being even better!

 

I am very glad I asked for help and you answered. Thanks again

 

Karen