Guest Charles Torre Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 Some of you might recall that I was thinking about joining the Navajo sheep project. They give you a bunch of ewes - for free! You care for the ewes (not for free) and they give you a ram to breed them once a year. You then give up the lambs to help build up this enormous flock of Navajo Churro sheep. The sheep are very hardy; no need for worming, no need to assist at birth. You can trade back your ewes for new ones every once in a while, if you wish. It's tax deductible. This looked to be a pretty great deal for someone like mysef who is principally interested in learning to care for livestock and in training dogs. Not to mention that I am not much of a buyer/seller, it is a good cause, etc. Well, I finally took the plunge and got about a dozen of these churros. I really like these sheep, but man are they tough! They have not seen dogs before, of course. I guess they have the "range ewe" mentality. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not that they are particularly heavy, really. But they can be very stubborn. They are willing to move quite nicely if the dog is just right and the situation is somehow not too tight. But if there is a lot of pressure, or if the dog is inside their comfort zone, look out! I was used to hair sheep and/or somewhat dog broke sheep, which will respond to mistakes by putting a lot of distance between them and the dog - and fast. These churros respond to mistakes by lining up behind the lead ewes and watching the leaders try to stomp the dog into the ground. Well, the dogs and I quickly learned to work carefully and not let that fight response kick in. So this is an excellent education we're getting. But now we occasionally get some "stand-offs", that neither of my dogs (who have quite different styles, e.g., one is rather loose-eyed, and one is rather strong-eyed) have had to deal with before. These dogs are used to uncooperative ewes, e.g., they work ewes with lambs quite well. In these situations, if I just insist that the dog increase the pressure a fight will usually result. (I need to teach a grip, but I don't know how!) So far, what I do is move a little closer and exert a little pressure of my own (the sheep are VERY sensitive to people-pressure) to get the sheep unstuck. Then I immediately back off and let the dog work. My question is: Is this the right way to deal with these situations (help the dog out with the bare minimum of assistance)? Or should I be trying something else? (e.g, grip?) Will this way of coping actually allow the dog to improve in such situations, or will it become a crutch? I guess I could just exchange the fighting ewes for wimpier ones. But I would rather that my dogs and I learn to deal with this situation, since they are old enough to deal with adversity, and in any case tough ewes are common around these parts once you graduate to more advanced herding activities. charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 10-30-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 Charlie, For whatever is worth,I would let my dog take that ewe down once or twice to let her know who's the boss. You could help out your dogs only for so long,however when you walk to help out your dog,that ewe moves from your pressure rather than the dogs,while it's nice for the dogs peace of mind at that point,what happens when that ewe will come face to face with the dog when you're not that close? If you'll let your dog have her nearby,you could easily tell your dog to let go once she's put on her place but half a mile down the road,it gets ugly. There are some sheep who shows no respect for kindness or understanding from dogs and are born with a bad temper,only thing teaches them how to show proper respect is teeth over the course of few days. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 I agree with Inci (as usual, but not ALWAYS, of course)... The situation you describe is the one I like to use to teach my dogs that hitting is ok - usually it doesn't make encouragement to get them to go in and "mix it up" a bit... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted October 31, 2002 Report Share Posted October 31, 2002 Sorry, gotta go off topic here. This is one of my pet peeves, along with common practices that lead to antibiotic resistance. Charlie wrote: "The sheep are very hardy; no need for worming, no need to assist at birth." Take this with at least a grain of salt. Perhaps a 50-lb bag of salt. Parasite resistance is largely a myth. In many cases, your sheep might be avoiding parasites (as in a range situation where you're stocking at rates of one sheep to every three to 10 acres) or your sheep might simply be subclinically-infected. There's some work being done in NZ on developing a sheep that is genetically resistant to parasites, but they're not really closing in on it too quickly. What they're finding is that they can develop truly resistant sheep for one place, but when they move them to another, they suddenly become susceptible again. Subclinical infestation is a huge problem in farm flocks. It means that lambs don't grow properly, which means that they require more inputs to reach maturity. It means that ewes and lambs are more susceptible to other diseases because their immune system is compromised. Anyway, if anyone tells you that a breed of sheep doesn't need worming, pay it the same amount of attention that you would to a used car salesman telling you a car was owned by a little old lady who only drove it to church on Sunday. The difference is that the sheep salesman might actually believe the line, while the used car salesman knows it's bull. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted October 31, 2002 Report Share Posted October 31, 2002 Yeah, I'll go along with Fosher, I didn't read the "no worming" part... "Parasite resistance" is similar to "water resistant" - or "stain resistant"...it fits on a pretty huge continuum...depending... If you don't want to overworm, do your own fecals, but rest assured, they will have parasites. Death, taxes, and worms... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckaycanada Posted October 31, 2002 Report Share Posted October 31, 2002 Anyone else out there taught their dog to bite by holding a sheep and encouraging the dog to take hold? I know this may sound a bit "over the top" but it worked for my dog who was put off by tough sheep who would stand him down. He never hurt them (at least we drew no blood) but now he'll go in if I ask (usually). If I ask him and then hit him with a stop before he grips, the tougher sheep tend (tend!) to take him seriously without a grip. I think they can tell the difference between bluff and serious intent. I have a friend with tough sheep and I think it's character building providing you never strand the dog face to face with a stubborn ewe (be ready to step in). John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted October 31, 2002 Report Share Posted October 31, 2002 Last weekend,we (me and the dog) were unloading the double decker stock trailer,first the lower section,then a door drops it becomes a chute to release the upper section creatures. When the sheep up top saw the dog,they packed very hard (approx.200 head)facing the dog. This is a no win situation for a dog who wouldn't go and rattled them a bit. Everytime I send Rex to get back,he dove underneath them,only about 20-30 would separate at first leg,by the time Rex peeled few more heads,those first party ran back to join. They heard the rest of the flock but since there wasn't any visual contact,they were not about to get off. Dog without a grip became so useless. I called him off,ran back to the truck and took out another dog (Ana). Ran back to the trailer and send out Ana. Here's what she did,went on way side and dove underneath them,she came out at one point,I saw her head and a set of chompers. Once she made enough space,she dove back in,came out again,went after few noses then dove under again. Sheep started to loosen up from the tight pack and she was about half way through,she stopped and turned on the loose pack,when few wanted to run back she met them and gave few hits again. Once they decided the dog was a danger,few headed down the chute for the lower level. After that,all she did was get back to way side and they all decided not to meet her wrath. Total unloading time was less than 5 minutes whereas with Rex who has all the presence to move sheep but not the grip as a reinforcer,we spent at least 15 minutes with any luck. Not a single sheep had a drop of a blood on their noses but learned fast how much it hurts when they take a hit. The intent of grip (which in turn a tremendous confidence in a dog who knows how to use teeth) could be read by sheep but seems not to work when you have a mob on hand. I never liked working with grippers until I got a non gripper. I'm not preaching that the sheep ought to be mauled but sheep must learn to respect dogs,especially under certain circumstances,otherwise I could have been in that trailer all night long fooling with darn blackheads. Their skinny butts will be out of here soon,wish it was Sunday already. Loading them ought to be more fun. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted October 31, 2002 Report Share Posted October 31, 2002 Forgot to add,I'll also concur with Bill about dewormers and sheep. Sheep could be selected for their worm burdens and they also become more resistant as they age but lambs or young ewes must be dewormed to keep their conditions. Rain fall,amount of sheep per acreage and their body conditions do make a difference in their worm counts,best to get a sample of their feces periodally and dewormed them accordingly. Nuff lecture....Enjoy your Navajo-Churros. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted November 1, 2002 Report Share Posted November 1, 2002 Thanks for all the input. I can see that it is time I try to teach a grip command. I've checked around a bit and John's method is pretty standard, it seems. The more I work the dogs the more I appreciate their differences. It seems that I have one dog who, when encouraged to grip, will grip, release and prepare to cover, no problem. My other dog, when encouraged to grip, prefers to take a ride. Of course the smart-gripper was trained by someone else. Sigh. Thanks also for the lessons on parasites. $&*#*$^%$@# worms. I always was an easy sell... charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 11-01-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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