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bad sheep


J.E.S
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One of my sheep has turned sour and now is challenging my dog. I have tried holding her and he will take a bite then but if she is loose she will go at him and he will back off. Should I just send this one to auction? Are these sheep any good for teaching a dog to grip? I have tried to set up the situation everytime so my dog wins, but I'm really starting to hate this sheep. Guess I could just use her for breeding, but she is a Barb and I don't care for them much.

JES.

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Guest PrairieFire

My take - I don't work sheep like that alone if I don't haveto - but I have a relatively large flock and can pick and choose.

 

I also like to specially mark those sheep and make sure people like Karen, Inci, Bill F., Terry, and others get them in a special packet when they come to my place...

 

Actually, I don't beleive in manhandling stock to teach a dog to grip - but then, I've never had a dog that wouldn't grip, which meant I could teach it WHEN to grip...

 

Manhandling the stock seems like just teaching the dog to be a bully...to me.

 

What I have found, USUALLY but not always, is that with sheep like that, they have a different "fight or flight" zone...and if I can keep a dog's distance, or the dog can sense it (which is ideal) - we can both learn something about handling difficult sheep around a course or farm...

 

That said, some sheep just deserve to be dog food...

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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LOL, it's funny that you should mention that... I have a short little ewe with an equally short temper. She will not come out and challenge a dog (she used to, and her lambs do... but she has learned to perfect her treachery).

 

Case in point.. last night, I was out starting teach a dog the elementary concepts of shedding. I'd get a split... call her through and as soon as she looked at one packet of sheep and made a move toward them... from behind, in full assault would be the red ewe. (For some reason, the term 'suicide bomber' comes to mind) There is a big crash and smash and the little dog comes back with teeth, LOL. I get everything together and try it again... again, sneak attack. Nasty old witch.

 

OTOH, she is one of my best sheep. She always has two big, fat lambs... and for some reason, mostly ram lambs, so I can't seem to part with her.

 

Send me your evil sheep... I like those kind.

 

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Kristine D.

D Cent Livestock

EAT BEEF - The West Wasn't Won on a Salad

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Guest KillerH

I look at it like this-

 

Number 1 - I raise livestock, If the animal acts out of the ordinary(ie. high strung, jumper, fighter)and good solid work does not change their attitudes-- they go Bye Bye.

 

I definetly do not use them for breeding stock.

 

And if the dog has risen to the challenge, done a good job of making the animal rethink its ways and it still has to challenge the dog every time. In my opionion it is useless to teach the dog anything but how to loose.

 

Some dogs are weak and will run into stock calling its bluff often and for no good reason.

 

But I also believe that there is stock out there that has either had its self preservation instincts obliterated(soured with repetitive training) or ones whos fight instincts are so developed that they overwhelm the self preservation instincts(ie. badd ass animals or good mommas). That even the best dogs will not be effective.

 

Basic livestock rule- If an animal upsets the flow and does not respond to good conditioning practices. It has to go, can't have the whole herd mentality upset by one errent animal.

 

And I agree with Bill that creating a force situation(ie holding an animal) is not effective conditioning aide for either the animal or the dog. When a dog bites right they have to have an immediate reward from the animal(turning away, rejoining the group, backing down) we can't create that.

 

Karen

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I'm not working this sheep alone but she is a straggler and always has been. My dog is working well off of her but I think she is deciding she just doesnt' want to work anymore. She hangs back to nibble some grass the other sheep move on off the dog and if he tries to move her she will just go at him. I'm only trying to hold the sheep because he will not grip her nose..he'll take cheap shots at her rear legs if he can but I don't want him doing that of course. My holding her has not made a bully of him..this dog lacks confidence in the first place but is a very nice worker. He's only just turned 2. He had a run in with my goat a while back and she butted him hard up against the fence and he has since been a bit leary of having the sheep go at him. Can't blame him..I don't like that goat either. My fault he got in with the goat and I've regretted it ever since...but my question is can we work thru this and is it better to keep this sheep to work thru it or just get rid of her? He will need to stand up for himself if I am ever going to trial him. He's a real nice dog otherwise.

JES.

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Guest PrairieFire

JES - without seeing your baaaad sheep - and working it with a dog we individually know, its hard to say if it's truly bad, or just worked to death...

 

If no other sheep in your flock are acting that way - I would have a tendency to say it's the sheep - and if she isn't a wonderful producer - take yourself out to dinner on bringing her to the stockyards...

 

I have MANY ewes, especially the NCCs, who, when they have young babies, need to be worked especially carefully by a very strong dog - but I expect that, cherish that, and breed for it...

 

Once the babies are grown enough to work with mama...that's what I expect from my sheep.

 

I have one gimmer right now that CONSISTENTLY, both with my dogs and others, takes off from the flock and heads for the way back, by herself, dives through the barbed wire and heads for the neighbors horse barn...

 

Dog food.

 

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Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 05-03-2002).]

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"If no other sheep in your flock are acting that way - I would have a tendency to say it's the sheep - "

 

None of my other sheep act like this. Also I haven't been working these sheep much at all lately. The most I have done is take them out and let them graze a bit around the property. But I haven't really worked them for weeks. Maybe she liked the time off and decided to quit her job? LOL Anyway, I think I will just get rid of her and not make my dog have to have the worry of keeping her in line. I'll be moving in a few months not only to a much larger property where I can get more sheep and work them better, but I will be across the road from my trainers and can work there also. It does seem however that my dog gets into situations that undermine his confidence. We were in a clinic a couple weeks ago and we put quite a bit of pressure on him for 4 days. Then we did herding demos at a huge festival for 2 days. Such a jump from complete disipline to not being able to disipline him at all. But he was really good at class the other day. Nice outruns, nice steady walk ups...kept his sheep settled, worked "WITH" me...WE also worked set out for a herding match last weekend and he did well at that. I think I might worry too much. I just need to start enjoying it more.

JES.

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Guest PrairieFire

Sounds good...

 

Especially with a newer handler and newer dog, you don't need to fight stock...fresh stock, challenging stock is good...fighters aren't worth it...

 

Have fun at your new place, let us know how it's going, huh?

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

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"Have fun at your new place, let us know how it's going, huh?"

 

yes I will Bill...

whenever I get into something new to me I go full bore. I need to just back off here and let it happen I guess. Guess I can't be an open trialer after only 1 1/2 years huh? And I will get rid of that stupid sheep..

JES.

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  • 5 months later...

Just wanted to update from my post back in May when I was having problems with my dog backing down from my ewe. I've been working on my dogs confidence issues and when he has shown any sign of backing down I've put him up and brought out my other dog to work. He has gotten the point that if he quits on me I will replace him. Today I had him gather the goats out of the pen to graze. When my doe challenged him and reared up and went at him to butt he stood his ground and when her feet hit the ground he grabbed her nose. She tried to rear and butt him again and he never moved a muscle. She finally did as he asked and walked out of the pen. He's been working really well for me and a lot of the issues I've had with him are going away.

JES.

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