Where have the "full" Champions gone?

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I was going to post this under JaderBug's Kennel Club thread, but I think it's too far off topic from what she was asking. However, Sue's comments got me curious, and here's what I came up with on quick search.

 

Last I was aware (maybe a couple of years ago), there had been just one dog in UK that achieved both conformation championship and met the performance requirements then in place (which were not terribly stringent but at least indicated a certain talent and/or trainability on sheep).

 

The sad part of that can be attributed to one of two situations - either KC people and dogs made attempts to fulfill the requirements, and the level of working ability in KC dogs was so abysmal that only one achieved that goal - or - so few people were interested in "proving" that their show-quality dogs could/might be able to work that hardly anyone bothered.

 

Either way, it's a sad commentary on the state of the show "Border Collie" in UK and/or the mindset of the showring "Border Collie" people in UK.

 

Absolutely. Here's a quote from the Border Collie Club of Great Britain site. The author appears to be Doug Collier.

 

At the time that the Border Collie Club of Great Britain approached the Kennel Club in 1973 to recognise the Border Collie and the KC eventually accepted the breed for the show ring in 1976, the Club and the KC were in full agreement that the status of full champion for the Border Collie should only be achieved if the dog could prove its ability to herd sheep. Otherwise the title gained by a Border Collie achieving three CCs would be that of Show Champion (Sh Ch}.

The KC put forward a herding and also made a proviso in their rules for a cattle test, should one be required at a later date. The initial test was fro Border Collies which had gained a Stud Book Number. A fee of �10 would be charged and only three attempts were permissible and only two of them in any one year. The test would be judged by three ISDS Judges, one of whom would be the secretary and pass mark would be 60%. The test consisted of

An outrun of 200 yards(20 points)

Lift 5 sheep(10 points)

A Straight fetch past a post to handler(20 points)

A drive back to post maximum 100 yards(30 points)

A pen 12� x 6� with gate(20 points)

Total:100 points

Time allowed:15 minutes

Exemption from the test would be granted to any dog qualifying for the National or International Sheep Dog Trials or gaining a 1st to 7th place at an open Sheepdog Trial affiliated to the ISDS. Several tests were arranged and several dogs took the tests at each session. Only 5 dogs ever passed the test, Ann Leigh with her dog Fordrought Fen and Heather Turner with Locheil Look North who also gained three CCs and therefore took the full title of Champion. This dog died in December 2004.

Believing that the test, the judging system, and its judges were too harsh for any show dog to pass the specialty breed clubs put forward proposals to the KC to modify the test and in 1992 they, the KC; with agreement (presumably) with the ISDS modified the test.

(Yuck.)

Also, the breeders with the kennel name "Whenway" have gotten two of their dogs Registered on Merit with ISDS,

Ma Biche of Whenway (who was bred to Wilson's ##Spot and produced Whenway Royal Highlander, who appears in more than a few show pedigrees), and Bridacre Flair (Charlie, the 2nd dog featured on the page...who incidentally, was bred to a Sh.Ch. dog). They don't make any mention of Charlie's pedigree that I can find, though she seems to have a head shape I associate with show breeding. These are the only dogs that I was able to find that are/were involved with a show kennel that have been ROM'd. But I don't think either of the two were even Sh.CH?

And here is

Locheil Look North, the only "Full Champion" in the KC. His pedigree is included on the page.

Does anyone else know whether there are more show-bred dogs that have been ROM'd with ISDS? Just asking out of curiousity.

[Pam Wolf]

The KC did change the test to one very similar to an early PT test for AKC. Judging is no longer ISDS judges, but can be approved KC judges. More proof that if the dogs cannot do the job, the job is too hard, not that the dogs aren't good enough kennel club mentality

[Sue R]

Well said, Pam.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

The KC did change the test to one very similar to an early PT test for AKC. Judging is no longer ISDS judges, but can be approved KC judges. More proof that if the dogs cannot do the job, the job is too hard, not that the dogs aren't good enough kennel club mentality

 

Yep, I'm aware the test for "full" champion status has been made easier. I feel I made a couple mistakes with my original post. First, my question was really whether anyone knows if other show-line dogs have been ROM'd for ISDS registration (and not really meant to be a question about full champions, since there appears to have only been one). Second, this is the wrong audience to ask since not many people here follow the successes of KC dogs. So title of my post was meant in fun, but I confused the issue by the term "full champions." However, I'll post the question in a few more show-oriented boards and email groups and see if I get any replies.

 

I assume I won't get any, or will get very few responses, and the problem with that is determining whether the KC people are not interested enough to try, or whether a good-ish number of people have tried with their show-bred dogs but failed. Maybe someone at the ISDS would know.