ragtimedog Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Doc will drive and flank off balance, but slowly. My frustration is, that it takes 3 commands to pull him in and when he finally goes, he goes too far too fast so I have to stop him almost immediately. Now the sheep have drifted too far and I have to try to get him to go back the other way. Another 3 commands and the same thing happens. He's very hesitant and we both end up frustrated. Another helpful one for the 6 year old is to use the fence or a corner to get the dog used to being in the corner or tightest spot himself. It would be similar to what I wrote in the first "expert" question. Get between the sheep and the dog and work on getting him to flank around and eventually stop between the sheep and the fence. A lot of dogs buzz through there at warp speed because it is so uncomfortable to them to be in there. Does this dog know its off balance flanks? If not, a good place to teach them. I read the discussion on the two adjacent corrals and thought I had found the ANSWER! First off, though, I realized you didn't mention what the sheep are likely to do while I'm carefully sending the dog on his flanks. By the time Doc comes around to the fence the sheep are long gone. 'Course he thought catching them was the best part! And he's not too bad about being on the fence, but he's NOT good at flanking off balance. So I tried this for a couple of days. I don't work him too long at a time. But today after a little driving work that was pretty bad, we went to the fence. Before I could even begin to send him anywhere, he immediately flanked around - off balance - to the fence! Any ideas for this smarty pants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carol campion Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Doc will drive and flank off balance, but slowly. My frustration is, that it takes 3 commands to pull him in and when he finally goes, he goes too far too fast so I have to stop him almost immediately. Now the sheep have drifted too far and I have to try to get him to go back the other way. Another 3 commands and the same thing happens. He's very hesitant and we both end up frustrated. I read the discussion on the two adjacent corrals and thought I had found the ANSWER! First off, though, I realized you didn't mention what the sheep are likely to do while I'm carefully sending the dog on his flanks. By the time Doc comes around to the fence the sheep are long gone. 'Course he thought catching them was the best part! And he's not too bad about being on the fence, but he's NOT good at flanking off balance. So I tried this for a couple of days. I don't work him too long at a time. But today after a little driving work that was pretty bad, we went to the fence. Before I could even begin to send him anywhere, he immediately flanked around - off balance - to the fence! Any ideas for this smarty pants? Hi Sorry it took so long to answer you, Lana. I wasn't ignoring you. I have had a house guest staying in my computer room, so haven't been able to be at it. It sounds like when he takes a flank, he over flanks and you are back to square one with needing another inside flank. Additionally, the dog has lost respect of the sheep. Sounds like the first problem is getting him to take that flank. Second is getting him to stop where you want. These sounds to me like "opinion" problems. He has his idea of where and how he wants to hold/control the sheep and you are not able to decide that. And this is basically what handling is. To be able to ask your dog to do something you need necessary, and he give up his opinion to help you. If your sheep along the fence have been too flighty for him to actually take those flanks in exercises and not lose them, he is in a no win situation. There is no benefit or success in taking those flanks. You will need to get sheep that will stay put so he can learn to take those flanks without losing them. Try taking the sheep to the fence with you and the sheep on the fence side and him across the sheep holding the sheep to you. Start with working on balance flanks and you stopping him where you ask. Once he is comfortable, start asking him to flank a little past where he wants to stop his flank. He will reach a point where he will go , say on a "come by" and then want to flip back to where he feels he is in better control. Don't let him. Stop him. Ask him to flank on a few steps further in that same direction. This is the first exposure to feeling uncomfortable off balance. Then work towards being able to flank him a few steps further on that "come by". Accept a few steps at a time, if that's what he'll give. Then flank him back to balance and start again. Work towards being able to flank him so he is all the way to the fence himself. (A half moon shape). The sheep will probably want to bolt. If they start bolting earlier in the sessions, just flank him back to hold them. YOu decide when though. You should be able to break the sheep and tame them while working these flanks. Once he is taking these flanks off balance in this configuration, ask him to flank past the boundary of the fence and on to between the sheep and the fence. Stop him there just so he can "feel" being there. Then flank him back to catch the sheep (whom I am sure will have tried to run) and bring the sheep back to start again. You don't want to have the dog on top of the sheep for any of this. You need space. The shape of the flanks are important or the sheep will be in a panic and thus the dog. Work these little flank exercises til the dog in comfortable taking any flank or stopping anywhere on a flank. Then move it all to you and the dog being in a drive position with the sheep being held against the fence but you and the dog in the open. Then move the entire exercise to the open field and try to apply it to the drive. If he disobeys, don't just give him the command he is wanting to execute. Keep your focus otherwise he won't learn to take "your" commands when you need them. He will revert to pleasing himself when you need something difficult. This should help break the sheep so they can be an aid in this training rather than a source of frustration. Hope this helps. Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragtimedog Posted June 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hi Sorry it took so long to answer you, Lana. I wasn't ignoring you. I have had a house guest staying in my computer room, so haven't been able to be at it. I wasn't worried. Thought you might be trialling somewhere. If your sheep along the fence have been too flighty for him to actually take those flanks in exercises and not lose them, he is in a no win situation. There is no benefit or success in taking those flanks. You will need to get sheep that will stay put so he can learn to take those flanks without losing them. But, Carollllll,,, sniff, I've worked so hard to get a few sheep that would MOVE for the dog. Now you want me to "break" them???? WAHHHHH. (sorry...ahem) Actually, I don't think the sheep are flighty at all. He's probably just too close. I can send him out wider pretty easily. In fact, when he gets frustrated, he does that by himself. He also spins and wavers back and forth which tells me he's really unsure about what he's supposed to do. But then at other times he takes the flank beautifully. I'm printing this out and will study it carefully before giving it another try. Thanks. I'll let you know what develops. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragtimedog Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 OK I backed him off. the sheep stayed put and I could really see what was going on. I could see much better what was going on.He'd go almost to the fence and then spin. I had to make him take the flank several times. I think we had a good training session! Thanks so much for the advice. We'll keep trying. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carol campion Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 OK I backed him off. the sheep stayed put and I could really see what was going on. I could see much better what was going on.He'd go almost to the fence and then spin. I had to make him take the flank several times. I think we had a good training session! Thanks so much for the advice. We'll keep trying.L Spin back to balance, I assume. That's what most do because once they flank past his perceived "control" point, they get uncomfortable. That's the part you need to help him get comfortable with. Then you can try to stop him at different points anywhere in those flanks. Then take it to the open. He can learn faster if the sheep aren't trying to run away. Let me know if you need more help. Carol' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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