TAC2 Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 My sheep deserve to have their sheepiness license revoked! The world's most stupid sheep I need those flighty Cheviot sheep! We brought Lena out to work two of our sheep for the first time today. I was worried they would panic and run when Lena went for the lift, but nooooo, not my dummies. She did a nice outrun, came around behind them and the sheep...they turned around to amble over and see who the newcomer was! The look on Lena's face was priceless. Er, um...why are your sheep coming toward me and not you??? She was definitely a little rattled by their curiosity. Anyway, she got them moving with a little wearing and then stopped. I tried walk up, flanks in both directions, then woke up to the fact she was holding them against the renegade sheep's fence. Good girl, stupid me. With a little help from hubby we shooed them off the fence and Lena went to get them again. These sheep are so dumb, all they wanted to do was graze and watch the hubby who was in the stall keeping the LGD out of trouble and taking pictures. She flanked around, got closer and closer and still...no movement. Once again we shooed them off and were able to work up and down the pasture with the sheep between me and Lena --- driving and gathering side to side instead of her driving the sheep behind me. Anytime one tried to break in a different direction, Lena was right there to put it back. We finished off with her putting them in a stall (with a little assistance from grain rattled in bowl) since they just won't run from the dog if she's behind them...stupid sheep. Well done Lena. ~ Tru Picture: Outrun up to the sheep, holding sheep to fence, oblivious sheep, come by, still oblivious, closer, stupid sheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Pet type sheep often are more difficult to work with dogs because they don't behave like "normal" sheep. Until they get used to being worked by a dog, you'll just have to keep doing what you're doing, which is getting out there and helping Lena move them as needed. Remember that if the sheep continue to disrespect her, she'll start to lose confidence, so you want to make sure that you're there to back her up whenever they don't want to move for her, at least till they get with the program. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAC2 Posted November 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Pet type sheep J. They're not really pet type sheep at all and they move away from me just fine ; however, they do live with two LGD who submit to them except at feeding time. I think it's more that the Corriedale are basically lazy and the BFL ram lamb (8 months old) is still very docile. We're expecting 2-4 lambs out of them and have two to six lambs reserved for spring (pending birth type etc.) Two of those are Cheviot x BFL - so maybe we'll get a little spunk in the new sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Do you know anybody close by that has an open dog that could come and work your sheep a little? Since they live with the LGD's they are just too comfortable around dogs maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAC2 Posted November 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Mona: No one I know that well, but I'll ask around. A lightbulb moment here. I had the electronet down so we could work the whole pasture - I was concerned about the sheep panicking (ha!) and blowing through the electric fence. Do you think it would help to make a smaller area to work, putting more pressure on the sheep and making them slightly less secure? I guess this is good for me and Lena - I have to think how to deal with this and she has to learn to deal with all kinds of sheep, particularly the idiots I have LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 The point still holds that if the sheep aren't used to being worked by a dog (and they should recognize the LGDs as different from a border collie--the approach of the two types of dog toward the sheep is quite different), they aren't going to work all that well. You've got a novice dog (didn't you say she had run only in novice-novice?) and non-dog-broke sheep. It's not the best combination, especially combined with a novice handler. The sheep need to learn to respect the dog. Mona's suggestion of having someone with a trained dog doing the dog breaking for you is a good one, but till you can arrange something like that you need to be prepared to always back up your dog. If the sheep will move off you, then you can get behind them with Lena and help her push them. Doing so will help build her confidence. It will mean not sending her long distances for sheep right now and perhaps doing more driving type work than fetching, but the idea is that you'll need to stay close to the action (or lack thereof) in order to help her out. Sheep that have never been worked by a dog don't automatically run away. In fact, what your sheep did was at least as typical as not. (Cattle that have never been worked will do the same thing--turn and go up to the dog out of curiosity). Some breeds are lighter than others, but there's no guarantee that any sheep that hasn't seen a dog is going to run at the sight of one. At a demo my neighbor and I did at a farm day this past fall, the host provides the sheep and they are always spring ram lambs that have never seen a dog (you can bet that makes for an interesting demo). Anyway, when we got them up to sort them (the owner brought them up with feed), most of them immediately walked up to my dog. Fortunately she knows how to handle that and the sheep pretty quickly learned to move off the dog. Working such sheep does require that the dog have confidence. I would not recommend a smaller area as that will also put more pressure on your dog. (As an aside, you said the electronet was down. Was it down in such a way that the sheep could walk over it? If so, you might want to reconsider that tactic, because if you encourage sheep to walk over it while you're working them, then they will start testing it more when it's up too.) I really think that the answer is to get out there and help your dog move the sheep. At least until you can get someone to help you dog break them. Also, if they're not willing to move off your dog now, I'd be very careful come lambing time when they will be extra protective/belligerent. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 My sheep deserve to have their sheepiness license revoked! The world's most stupid sheep I need those flighty Cheviot sheep! We brought Lena out to work two of our sheep for the first time today. I was worried they would panic and run when Lena went for the lift, but nooooo, not my dummies. She did a nice outrun, came around behind them and the sheep...they turned around to amble over and see who the newcomer was! The look on Lena's face was priceless. Er, um...why are your sheep coming toward me and not you??? She was definitely a little rattled by their curiosity. Anyway, she got them moving with a little wearing and then stopped. I tried walk up, flanks in both directions, then woke up to the fact she was holding them against the renegade sheep's fence. Good girl, stupid me. With a little help from hubby we shooed them off the fence and Lena went to get them again. These sheep are so dumb, all they wanted to do was graze and watch the hubby who was in the stall keeping the LGD out of trouble and taking pictures. She flanked around, got closer and closer and still...no movement. Once again we shooed them off and were able to work up and down the pasture with the sheep between me and Lena --- driving and gathering side to side instead of her driving the sheep behind me. Anytime one tried to break in a different direction, Lena was right there to put it back. We finished off with her putting them in a stall (with a little assistance from grain rattled in bowl) since they just won't run from the dog if she's behind them...stupid sheep. Well done Lena. ~ Tru Picture: Outrun up to the sheep, holding sheep to fence, oblivious sheep, come by, still oblivious, closer, stupid sheep I also have some Corridale sheep. I wouldn't call them stupid I would call them heavy. They are not going to move for just any dog. They read the dog quickly and asses them then deciede if the dog means business and they have to move or if they can stand and ignore the dog. Each dogs approach to the sheep is different and I find a dog that comes in directly has much more effect than one that flanks. Many sheep read this as a weekness. I would a few different lighter sheep so your dog builds confidence then you can go back to adding in heavier sheep. Also I agree if someone has a more experienced dog that will continue to move into the sheep while they stand there the sheep will learn they need to move. But there again the sheep may move for that dog and know they don't have to with your young dog. You might try putting the sheep in an area they are not as comfortable or familiar in also, they may be more willing to move there. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAC2 Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 The point still holds that if the sheep aren't used to being worked by a dog (and they should recognize the LGDs as different from a border collie--the approach of the two types of dog toward the sheep is quite different), they aren't going to work all that well. You've got a novice dog (didn't you say she had run only in novice-novice?) and non-dog-broke sheep. It's not the best combination, especially combined with a novice handler. The sheep need to learn to respect the dog. Mona's suggestion of having someone with a trained dog doing the dog breaking for you is a good one, but till you can arrange something like that you need to be prepared to always back up your dog. If the sheep will move off you, then you can get behind them with Lena and help her push them. Doing so will help build her confidence. It will mean not sending her long distances for sheep right now and perhaps doing more driving type work than fetching, but the idea is that you'll need to stay close to the action (or lack thereof) in order to help her out. (As an aside, you said the electronet was down. Was it down in such a way that the sheep could walk over it? If so, you might want to reconsider that tactic, because if you encourage sheep to walk over it while you're working them, then they will start testing it more when it's up too.) I really think that the answer is to get out there and help your dog move the sheep. At least until you can get someone to help you dog break them. Also, if they're not willing to move off your dog now, I'd be very careful come lambing time when they will be extra protective/belligerent. J. Julie: I'm afraid calling me a novice handler is an overstatement --- I'm greener than green Lena has only been here three days and is still adjusting, this is her first day with our sheep too. Yes, she did work N/N and wasn't cut out to go Open. She is pretty confident once they are moving, and they seemed to know it, it was just getting them moving, and they knew that too. I appreciate the advice and I will get in closer to keep the sheep on the move. Hopefully I can find someone with a dog wanting to work on stubborn sheep. When I say the electronet was down, it was folded up and out of the pasture altogether. I've been working with livestock (just not sheep) for 10+ years now so I know how quickly they can learn to test a fence if I'm not careful. We had a horse that would touch his chin whiskers to the fence on almost a daily basis...just in case Denice: Lena isn't exactly young, she's 7; but she has only been working sheep for the 2+ years she spent with Terry. Her first family didn't do anything with her but leave her to her own devices in the yard. With that history, she really is an amazing dog and Terry did a fantastic job with her. I'm just thrilled with Lena and feel really lucky that she is here. Hopefully, I don't make so many mistakes that I mess things up too badly! Unfortunately, heavy sheep is what I have. I didn't get a dog to compete with, but a dog to help with shepherding. I am just beginning to understand how addictive the herding can be but I still have to work with the sheep I am raising for non-herding reasons. Thanks again to all for the advice...it's very welcome! ~ Tru Laingcroft www.freewebs.com/laingcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 FWIW, it took months before the well-started dog I bought would effectively work sheep for me. He was only 2 when I got him, but he'd done some nursery "fun" trialing. Part of our problem was that his previous owner was a slow-drawling southerner, and I'm a fast-talking mid-westerner, but it was still months before Nick & I were really a team. I even had dead-dog-broke sheep to work (my old dog was the definition of soft, and he could move them), and it was still a disaster. It was like Nick had to figure out that I really did want to work with him to get the job done. I didn't even attempt to put Nick to sheep until I'd had him for a few weeks. And then it was only because a group of ewes busted loose. Give it some time with Lena to let her settle in a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I agree with everything that's been said. Your sheep, not having been worked by a dog, are naturally curious. The dog's job is to teach them that the program is to move off of the dog. Now, a N/N level dog (who "wasn't cut out" to go to Open) may have a problem with moving them, at least initially. Having an experienced dog with a fair amount of power to move them around a bit for you, or along *with* your dog to give your dog a bit of confidence, might be helpful so they get used to the idea of just plain moving away from a dog. In the meantime, you will need to always be there to help her, as Julie said, to make sure that they don't learn to disrespect this particular dog (which can happen pretty quickly sometimes). Also, as already pointed out, some dogs take a bit to warm up to their new surroundings, and, as they do so, will gain confidence in general. Good luck, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Did you say you were working her on *two* sheep? with a 3rd penned up next to them? I think your dog did pretty well and about like i'd have expected on the sheep you've described. it's completely typical for sheep that are used to people but not dogs to walk over and see what that new black and white thing is. Once they decided she wasn't all that interesting, your husband (who they see as a grain bucket) became more so. Just keep at it and if you can get Lena to nip the sheep a bit, they'll get more respect for her. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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