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Posted

I just re-read your book ( i lost my first copy or loaned it out years ago). I had never gotten past the initial exercises, but this time I read it thru to your description of dog personality/working styles and AHAH! The dog everyone had told me was "hard" seemed to fit right into your "pressure sensitive" description (along with "keen") and at age 5, I've had a distinct improvement in his work and relaxation using the "wearing in a circle until exhaused" (although people I'm working with are appalled at the idea and want me to quit.) I'm having trouble with my own footwork - I think because he is trying to shift things from the "come-by" direction to "away" by speeding up which has me in such a tight circle I'm jammed by sheep and if I step away, he changes direction. We have years of bad habits to overcome, but I adore this dog and he is great for helping train me. He still wants to stop too close, and that tends to get him all tensed up and he blows into the come-by side (I think just to drive the sheep to a comfortable distance, because then he widens out on a nice flank). Should I just ignore that, or try to foresee it and rather than trying to keep him down, get him to walk up and wear?

 

My younger dog is ALSO pressure-sensitive, but adapts in the opposite way and sticks at pressure and doesn't want to flank or hold to me. I've done a LOT of plain wearing lately in all directions just to keep him focused on the sheep belonging to me. Not sure about other exercises.

Posted
I just re-read your book ( i lost my first copy or loaned it out years ago). I had never gotten past the initial exercises, but this time I read it thru to your description of dog personality/working styles and AHAH! The dog everyone had told me was "hard" seemed to fit right into your "pressure sensitive" description (along with "keen") and at age 5, I've had a distinct improvement in his work and relaxation using the "wearing in a circle until exhaused" (although people I'm working with are appalled at the idea and want me to quit.) I'm having trouble with my own footwork - I think because he is trying to shift things from the "come-by" direction to "away" by speeding up which has me in such a tight circle I'm jammed by sheep and if I step away, he changes direction. We have years of bad habits to overcome, but I adore this dog and he is great for helping train me. He still wants to stop too close, and that tends to get him all tensed up and he blows into the come-by side (I think just to drive the sheep to a comfortable distance, because then he widens out on a nice flank). Should I just ignore that, or try to foresee it and rather than trying to keep him down, get him to walk up and wear?

 

My younger dog is ALSO pressure-sensitive, but adapts in the opposite way and sticks at pressure and doesn't want to flank or hold to me. I've done a LOT of plain wearing lately in all directions just to keep him focused on the sheep belonging to me. Not sure about other exercises.

 

Glad the book has helped, but sounds like it may be time to move on to push both dogs off the sheep to a distance where the sensitivity is not quite as strong. After this much time, you must make him respect you enough to get off the sheep. Probably also time to start driving if they arn't already. I presume he is reasonably solid on his flanks. When flanking during a drive, force him to square off in his worst direction. You should be out to the side during these driving sessions, not behind.

 

Good luck -

Vergil

Posted

I immediately picked up on the words "force him" . Remember, you described this dog as thinking it's "life or death"! I was just working on his outrun start yesterday by having him give to lie down sideways (sort of) particularly on his come-by side which is the 'go straight in and slice and then pull out wide" side - and it was pretty successful as I could down him and make him restart until he softened on the take-off. How would you insist on squaring flanks - same way? When he was younger he was the king of driving, but took the car keys and left me out of the picture, so I had to bring him back into the "team" picture. I'm just getting things together enough to drive more than a few feet at a time.

 

Glad the book has helped, but sounds like it may be time to move on to push both dogs off the sheep to a distance where the sensitivity is not quite as strong. After this much time, you must make him respect you enough to get off the sheep. Probably also time to start driving if they arn't already. I presume he is reasonably solid on his flanks. When flanking during a drive, force him to square off in his worst direction. You should be out to the side during these driving sessions, not behind.

 

Good luck -

Vergil

Posted
I immediately picked up on the words "force him" . Remember, you described this dog as thinking it's "life or death"! I was just working on his outrun start yesterday by having him give to lie down sideways (sort of) particularly on his come-by side which is the 'go straight in and slice and then pull out wide" side - and it was pretty successful as I could down him and make him restart until he softened on the take-off. How would you insist on squaring flanks - same way? When he was younger he was the king of driving, but took the car keys and left me out of the picture, so I had to bring him back into the "team" picture. I'm just getting things together enough to drive more than a few feet at a time.

 

Yes similar to that, work as a triangle with you as the centerpoint (dog is another point and sheep the other) and force the dog off square...

 

Vergil

Posted

Sorry to be so dense, but how does one (me) on the away side "force" a dog out square going the come-by side when the dog's modus has been to slice and gather?

 

sometimes the come-by flank is nice and soft and round and sometimes..... it goes back to that comfort feeling. I've just never had any luck at all with trying to force him.

 

Yes similar to that, work as a triangle with you as the centerpoint (dog is another point and sheep the other) and force the dog off square...

 

Vergil

Posted
Sorry to be so dense, but how does one (me) on the away side "force" a dog out square going the come-by side when the dog's modus has been to slice and gather?

 

sometimes the come-by flank is nice and soft and round and sometimes..... it goes back to that comfort feeling. I've just never had any luck at all with trying to force him.

 

 

Ok - maybe this will help...you should be somewhat next to the dog (in this case on his right). Give short comebye flank off you, then lie him down. walk him in a little, give another flank, etc so your exercise ends up being a hexagon type shape...

 

Vergil

Posted

Thank you for the description - that is pretty clear. My problem is that when he gets close (after walking in) he becomes more anxious and is more likely to bust or slice. What I need is a way to quietly get him to flank from a comfortable distance while KEEPING that distance. Any ideas?

 

Ok - maybe this will help...you should be somewhat next to the dog (in this case on his right). Give short comebye flank off you, then lie him down. walk him in a little, give another flank, etc so your exercise ends up being a hexagon type shape...

 

Vergil

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
Thank you for the description - that is pretty clear. My problem is that when he gets close (after walking in) he becomes more anxious and is more likely to bust or slice. What I need is a way to quietly get him to flank from a comfortable distance while KEEPING that distance. Any ideas?

Are the sheep moving off when this happens? Can you warn him or lay him down when you sense this is about to happen?

 

Vergil

Posted

I really appreciate this conversation! Even really good trainers haven't understood this particular dog in a way which helps me help him. Your reply was about flanking him, walking him in and then flanking again. Yes, the sheep are moving off because he has a HUGE affect on sheep and doesn't understand this affect (well, he understands it from his point of view that the sheep are ALWAYS going to run off). The sheep move and he sees it before I do and he can't stand it (I can see it in his eyes). Even if he lies down he is immediately up to cover.

 

The wearing in one direction seemed to help with this. I think the biggest problem I face is his not understanding how to deliver sheep to "me." He has been making some nice outruns and lifts but his fetch increases in speed and he almost always runs the sheep over me. And this is the situation (him, moving sheep, me) where I have least control and if I step to him the sheep are "escaping" which makes him anxious and reassures him that I can't be trusted with the sheep without his "help."

 

I really need a lot of help getting him to "settle" either moving or down, on the other side of the sheep. His calmness and care when lifting or driving let me know he can do this. I have been working on his "stay" command which helps, but that is just my override, and it has him fighting his anxiety instead of relaxing.

 

Tnanks, Nancy

 

Are the sheep moving off when this happens? Can you warn him or lay him down when you sense this is about to happen?

 

Vergil

Posted
I really appreciate this conversation! Even really good trainers haven't understood this particular dog in a way which helps me help him. Your reply was about flanking him, walking him in and then flanking again. Yes, the sheep are moving off because he has a HUGE affect on sheep and doesn't understand this affect (well, he understands it from his point of view that the sheep are ALWAYS going to run off). The sheep move and he sees it before I do and he can't stand it (I can see it in his eyes). Even if he lies down he is immediately up to cover.

 

The wearing in one direction seemed to help with this. I think the biggest problem I face is his not understanding how to deliver sheep to "me." He has been making some nice outruns and lifts but his fetch increases in speed and he almost always runs the sheep over me. And this is the situation (him, moving sheep, me) where I have least control and if I step to him the sheep are "escaping" which makes him anxious and reassures him that I can't be trusted with the sheep without his "help."

 

I really need a lot of help getting him to "settle" either moving or down, on the other side of the sheep. His calmness and care when lifting or driving let me know he can do this. I have been working on his "stay" command which helps, but that is just my override, and it has him fighting his anxiety instead of relaxing.

 

Tnanks, Nancy

 

When you say they haven't understood your dog, do you mean they have been on the field with the two of you and can't work this issue out? What type of sheep are you working and how large an area. Stopping or slowing your dog down on the fetch is quite possibly a different issue then overflanking because of pressure.

Posted

Yes, I mean the issue of not understanding his "do or die" attitude. Most think I should be harder on him or "make" him stop some way. It wasn't until I read your description of "pressure sensitive" that I began to understand that he wasn't just a hard headed dolt. The most common suggestion is to walk through the sheep and go at him, but that just incites him to rush past me to cover and never convinces him that stopping was a good idea at all. I think that that (and the sheep that leave after I go through them) have allowed him to never understand that the sheep can just be "delivered" to me. He knows he can control the sheep if he gets around them. I think that's why your exercise of wearing in one direction has worked so well on him. Maybe there is some way to extend that exercise into fetching and shifting back to a turn if he presses in too much. By the time he stops, the sheep are feeling pressured to move away. I would just love to get things feeling "settled."

 

When you say they (handlers) haven't understood your dog, do you mean they have been on the field with the two of you and can't work this issue out? What type of sheep are you working and how large an area. Stopping or slowing your dog down on the fetch is quite possibly a different issue then overflanking because of pressure.
  • 2 weeks later...

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