Poor out-of-pen manners

[JaderBug]

Jade has been doing great with herding lesons (so have I!), she's really understanding what she's supposed to be doing. She picks up on things fast, and my trainer believes we should be ready to compete next spring. I really couldn't be happier with her progress in the pen, but her manners outside of the pen are atrocious. She pulls and pulls on the lead the minute we get out of the car, won't sit still when we're waiting in between sessions (lots of whining, pacing, pulling on the lead, lunging to get back in with the sheep, sitting, standing, impatience, etc), and more and more pulling.

 

I'm really glad she's excited about sheep and that she's that driven, but I'm really tired of getting my arm yanked off. She doesn't pull this crap anywhere else (except if she meets a new person, she starts wiggling all over the place with excitement). What can I do to get her to knock it off and just be calm away from the sheep?

[Patty Abel]

Rats, I had a pretty well thought out suggestion and hit "delete" instead of "backspace", dern new computer!!!

 

Since sheep are a new thing for Jade I would expect her to be excited. How do you handle the new person wiggles? I would expect that you want her to calm down(stop straining and sit) before you let a new person greet her. She is still happy, but more self controlled. The trick with sheep is to get her to be calm withOUT becoming too handler focused.

How does your trainer approach this? They may have a time in the training to introduce 'that'll do so as not to squealch the dogs enthusiasm for sheep. My lessons with my dog Donald were mostly chaos on a kite string.

When sheep become more work than play it is easier to get the dog to calm down.

[Sue R]

I realize she's young and enthusiastic, and you don't want to dampen that interest and focus. What does your trainer say about it or do about it?

 

The first clinic I went to with Jack Knox, a handler showed up with a dog that literally dragged her from the car to the pen. She had knots all along her leash so she wouldn't have it pulled out of her hands at whichever length she wanted to use. Jack worked with that dog right then and there (remember, Becca?) and it solved the problem in a few, brief, clear, consistent sessions. I have seen other folks walk towards or into a pen with their dog literally bouncing on its hind legs and all over them with excitement. But it's not just excitement, but it's also bad manners and disrespect for the handler.

 

For a dog that is younger and/or rather timid or hesitant otherwise, a handler might allow some rudeness rather than dampening a budding enthusiasm. But for a dog without that issue, I think manners like this need to be addressed, with a clear message and consistency that it won't be allowed.

 

The fix I have seen that works is simple. You don't let the dog pull, whine, pace, etc., by using your leash - but not by pulling on it, as that only allows the dog to pull more. Give the dog a bit of slack, and give a tug when she does the unwanted behavior. The tug can vary from just a little "reminder" (as little a "slapping" the slack in the leash along her side or a "nagging" little leash pop) to a sharp snap, all dependent on the level of bad manners the dog is giving you, and what it takes to get her attention and response (within humane limits, of course).

 

A single tug may work in one situation, and a series of tugs may be needed in another, remembering to immediately stop the tugging and give slack when you get the desired behavior offered. Don't expect her to go directly from wild to perfect, but look for her offering you an improvement in the behavior, which may only be momentarily at first, but which is rewarded by a slackened leash. If and when she reverts to the bad behavior, use your tugs again.

 

If she will not listen to your corrections or becomes more agitated, take her away from the sheep, or put her up in her crate or the car or whatever you have. She needs to learn that manners are important, and respect for you is important. If she won't listen and do what is right, she "loses the sheep" by being put away.

 

Other people will probably give you much better advice than this. Best wishes!

[JaderBug]

So far I have tried the tugging, whether it be just little tugs, or yanking her off balance- this doesn't seem to phase her much. When we're not around sheep, I've gotten her to walk on a loose lead pretty well by training with a choke chain, but as much as she pulls around sheep I don't want her to get hurt on a choke.

 

My trainer has tried walking around with her with a working wand swinging in front of their path- that way if she's pulling and the stick smacks her in the face it's her own fault, she went in the stick's path, not vice-versa. We've done that once, and it worked for an instant... I'm not sure why we haven't done that again.

 

Also, when I try to make her sit before she continues, her butt hits the ground, it squirms around from side to side (reminds me of a boxer or aussie trying to wag its tail), her front feet jump up and down like the ground is lava, her head flings all over the place, and the whining ensues. It's quite pathetic, about the most spastic sit I've ever seen.

 

Turning and walking in the other direction when she pulls doesn't seem to do much either- she just pulls in the new direction too. Always has.

 

I doubt there's much concern about breaking her confidence with the sheep... lately when the trainer is working her she's got an 'F You, they're my sheep!' attitude, which my trainer says shows a lot (if not a little too much) confidence... fortunately she doesn't do that with me! lol another thing to break...

 

Sue, how did Jack work with this pulling dog? the tugging method?

[Debbie Meier]

The fix I have seen that works is simple. You don't let the dog pull, whine, pace, etc., by using your leash - but not by pulling on it, as that only allows the dog to pull more. Give the dog a bit of slack, and give a tug when she does the unwanted behavior. The tug can vary from just a little "reminder" (as little a "slapping" the slack in the leash along her side or a "nagging" little leash pop) to a sharp snap, all dependent on the level of bad manners the dog is giving you, and what it takes to get her attention and response (within humane limits, of course).

 

A single tug may work in one situation, and a series of tugs may be needed in another, remembering to immediately stop the tugging and give slack when you get the desired behavior offered. Don't expect her to go directly from wild to perfect, but look for her offering you an improvement in the behavior, which may only be momentarily at first, but which is rewarded by a slackened leash. If and when she reverts to the bad behavior, use your tugs again.

 

Good advice and post Sue. Can you give an example of the desired behaivor you are first looking for when you begin the process, and what you are building towards?

 

Deb

[Sue R]

It's not so much a matter of whether or not the dog is walking behind you, next to you, or near but in front of you, although opinions vary greatly on this. Some insist on one or the other position. Jack has no problem with a dog that is nearby but looking for its sheep. I think the important thing is that it isn't going off to work without you and that it will return immediately when you give it a recall. Some people are adamant that the dog be behind the handler or next to the handler, and not flipping from side to side.

 

Yes, Jack does use the tugging technique and he will use a stick, whichever he feels is appropriate (and I wouldn't begin to second guess him, or anyone like him, who has a lifetime of learning and experience with dogs and stock). I think it is very important to not use any choke chain but rather a flat buckle collar that will not cause any injury. Elvin Kopp uses a rope (about clothesline size, but soft nylon rather than cotton or any stiffer rope) with a snap and a knot, that makes a more gentle, slip-lead arrangement (more gentle than a choke chain).

 

I think the key is consistency and keeping at it until you get the result you need - and I am not very good at this, myself. It's kind of a like a child (the dog) that is pestering its mother (handler) for something (the sheep). The child can be very persistent and, if the mother allows herself to be outsmarted or out-persisted, the child will win. If the dog can continue in its behavior and out-persist the handler, it will win and have its reward, even if that is only the continued excited behavior.

 

It's kind of like something a friend told me. She was working a new dog in for training, and the dog would not come to her recall. So she walked it down. No yelling, no threats, just a purposeful walk towards the dog. It took her two hours to walk this particular dog down, but that dog never blew off a recall again. Two hours. Patience and persistence is the key, and I am (I repeat) not good about this, but it is essential.

 

What I would like to build towards is a dog that can stay near my feet, or within a reasonably short radius of me, without whining, jumping, pacing, taking off, etc. That dog can shiver with excitement all it wants, lie down, sit up, stand, but it stays within that area (or along the fenceline near me) without being overly active and (essentially, in its mind) working the stock from our location. Watching is okay, long-distance "working" is not.

 

Initially, any proper reaction - not pulling, turning back to look not so much at me but at the place where it should be, any attitude of reduced excitement (replaced with a thoughtful attitude - ia dog that's all worked up is not thinking but a thinking dog may be moving reasonably), giving the handler an ear (flicking the ear back to listen to the handler - remember, the eyes are for the sheep and the ears are for the handler).

 

Elvin Kopp does a terrific job in his clinics in the very first session - no stock present, just a handler/dog relationship session. He has each team just walk out (on a lead or not, depending on the dog's level) into the arena/field/pen, whatever, and watches how the dog behaves with regards to the handler. If the dog pulls or acts rude or foolish, the handler first stopswith eyes on the dog, then gives a verbal (for Elvin, a low growly sound), and then gives a physical correction - doing each step only if the dog does not respond appropriately to the previous step. The handler does not move until the dog is correct (as Nancy says below, as I forgot to mention or emphasize this).

 

An appropriate response may be the dog just "searching" with his mind and eyes for the place in which he should be (by the handler and not pulling). As soon as that appropriate response is seen, the correction is ended and the dog is allowed to think, chose, and move into the correct position. If the dog does not continue to move to the desired location, then the process is repeated (eye, verbal, physical). He does it with really very gentle corrections, making the correction "fit the crime" in terms of being the mildest one that will get the desired result.

 

This is very similar to an example Jack Knox is fond of relating. He was struggling with a very difficult dog, and it was quite a fight. When giving a correction, he saw the dog flick an ear towards him, showing Jack that that dog was listening, that his mind was working, and that Jack was in the picture. He accepted that as a step in the right direction, and went on with the training. In other words, you don't get a 100% fix but you get and accept what the dog can offer, which is oftentimes subtle at first, and which will be built upon with further work.

 

Take this for what you paid for it, just some thoughts from another novice.

[Nancy Bovee]

I own Earl aka "a wiggle with a dog attached". Sitting to be petted at introductions has worked well. As to walking to sheep - he is 5 years old, and still over enthusiastic. However, one method has worked better than the rest. If he lunges ahead, I pop the leash (if it's on) AND I stop dead and don't move forward until he is by my side. This also works without the leash. Sometimes it takes a long time to get to the gate!!! I also make him sit or down before the gate and not enter until I'm in the field and call him. This is pretty easy to practice off sheep as well. Some trainers put more or less importance on these manners, but I think with some dogs it's essential for them to realize they don't get to go without you. Earl will NEVER be too handler

 

Nancy, Earl and Gus (who is sooooo polite)

 

focused

Rats, I had a pretty well thought out suggestion and hit "delete" instead of "backspace", dern new computer!!!

 

Since sheep are a new thing for Jade I would expect her to be excited. How do you handle the new person wiggles? I would expect that you want her to calm down(stop straining and sit) before you let a new person greet her. She is still happy, but more self controlled. The trick with sheep is to get her to be calm withOUT becoming too handler focused.

How does your trainer approach this? They may have a time in the training to introduce 'that'll do so as not to squealch the dogs enthusiasm for sheep. My lessons with my dog Donald were mostly chaos on a kite string.

When sheep become more work than play it is easier to get the dog to calm down.

[Debbie Meier]

Great descriptions Sue. Just now when I was out feeding I asked myself how many people really read through the advice given here or if they just blow it off, I fear a lot of folks blow it off, I'm probably as guilty as anyone else. So many are looking for a quick fix, I don't think there are any, it takes time and patience and in many (probably most) cases a change in the handlers ideas and approaches to get change in the dog. Kinda falls into the you don't know what you don't know deal. Last night we were working dogs and I was trying to get a new handler to get her dog to quite leaning and pulling on the leash, it wasn't until she took my dog out, worked him and told him that'll do that she realized what she was working towards and how far she was from getting there. She had seen examples, but until she expirenced it, the dog she herself was handling just doing what was expected it didn't register. She took her dog back and immediately applied her new expectation, the dog fell right in immediately showing change for the better. Her dog is trained up to pro-novice level, the handler is two week green novice, you would think the dog would know better, and she does but in the two weeks has already learned that she can do as she pleases and when she's here it's working sheep. The handler has been allowing the dog to run the show at home and now the dog thinks she should run the show here, things will change fast when I can finally get the handler up into the drivers seat, I don't think people realize that you have to work to stay there, the longer your in the back seat the harder it will be to get into the front seat behind the wheel.

 

With regards to the Poor out of pen manners, imo if you look close you will find the same poor manners in other places just not displaced as prominently. We look at it, as the dog is not able to keep his body and mind in the place he should be, in some cases these dogs have never been expected to keep themselves in a place but rely on the handler to keep them there via physical restraint (leash, kennel, crate). Getting a dog to stay put outside the arena and not working for himself/herself is a form of self discipline on the dogs part, IMO, the same discipline required when a dog responds properly to the handlers commands while working, if they can't stay with you outside the pen they can't stay with you inside the pen. But, many people don't require that the dog stays with them (I'm talking mind not body, listening to the handler, ready to receive information as was described by Jack accepting the ear twitch, that was all that dog could give at that time).

 

Sue explained that Elvin deals with the issue without the stock, this is important because it allows the handler to see that the problem has nothing to do with the stock, it is a handler - dog problem that is amplified by the draw of the livestock.

 

Deb

[Sue R]

She took her dog back and immediately applied her new expectation, the dog fell right in immediately showing change for the better. Her dog is trained up to pro-novice level, the handler is two week green novice, you would think the dog would know better, and she does but in the two weeks has already learned that she can do as she pleases and when she's here it's working sheep. The handler has been allowing the dog to run the show at home and now the dog thinks she should run the show here, things will change fast when I can finally get the handler up into the drivers seat, I don't think people realize that you have to work to stay there, the longer your in the back seat the harder it will be to get into the front seat behind the wheel.

(my emphasis)

 

Excellent example and description, Debbie!

 

We don't always realize that smart dogs learn bad habits as fast as (or faster than) good habits, just like children. And we, as loving handlers (and parents), often substitute love and lack of consequences for consistent, fair, clear instruction and corrections. When that happens, guess who is running the show? Guess who can't really be expected to understand what we want in terms of behavior?

 

I am thinking now of my Bute and strangers going by (walkers or bikers). Should Celt see a stranger, he will woof and make a little charge but all I have to do is say his name and he will come back to me. With Bute (who is much more wary of strangers in spite of socialization), I have the awful tendancy to yell "Bute!" when that happens and I get no result. Why not? Because I have not given him a correction that does help him know what to do. All I've done is yell his name, which probably has increased his anxiety and make him just bark and charge even worse. However, if I call "Bute, lie down!" in a firm and authoritative voice (no hysteria, please), he plops his little self right down, quits barking, and can be easily recalled. Smart dog, dumb human, but learning.

 

If only I knew then what I know now...

[Debbie Meier]

It's amazing where, when and from who you can learn things, when that novice was working my dog last night, I noticed a big change in his level of try, she was unpredictable and he tried very hard to keep from doing something that would cause him discomfort, he's pretty pressure sensitive, as he started to understand her he began trying her, to see if he could do what he wanted rather then follow direction. It was then that I realized I have become too predictable to him and have accepted less then he is capable of in an effort to make him more comfortable, it made it clear as to why I loose the steering wheel to him every now and them, the bugger has been playing me, even though I try hard not to be played. It's kinda funny how they keep working on us trying to get us to require less and let them be their own leader. He's to the point where I don't worry about how he handles the stock, it's more the he goes right, left, stop and walk up when I tell him to, he totally knows the commands and the proper way to execute them just does not always agree that what I want done with the stock is what he wants.

 

Just a suggestion on Bute, rather then redirecting him with a lie down command just apply pressure to first get him to leave the stimuli (even walk him down), the next time apply pressure so he not only leaves the stimuli but thinks back to where he was, and keep going with this until he hears/sees the stimuli with out reacting to it beyond ackowledgement, basically giving you the desired behaivor. Apply the same process you suggest above, sometimes we forget (I know I do) that we need to train our way through all aspects of our lives with our dogs in order to change behaivors. With dogs we really can never stop being trainers (leaders), kinda like with kids, we can't take a break from being parents.

 

 

Deb

[hsnrs]

Not for everyone but we used a prong collar at first and then the tug and sit idea. works great.

The Aussie board people suggested crating our male to quiet him while waiting his turn. It works for him. N

[stockdogranch]

The Aussie board people suggested crating our male to quiet him while waiting his turn.

 

Lots of people certainly do this. And it does keepthe dog quiet while waiting its turn. However, to me, that is merely avoiding the issue, and never teaches the dog to quietly wait its turn,

 

A

[Nancy Bovee]

Does anyone have suggestions about teaching dogs to wait quietly when you are in the field with another dog? Mine are quite good as long as I'm not working one instead of the other. (And one is good as long as he has had a turn). As long as other people are around to tell them to be quiet, they will be, but they don't really wait quietly on their own. It's sibling rivalry. It doesn't make sense to come back to them to correct them (they win me). Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Nancy

 

Lots of people certainly do this. And it does keepthe dog quiet while waiting its turn. However, to me, that is merely avoiding the issue, and never teaches the dog to quietly wait its turn,

 

A

[Sue R]

Narita - I am sure you don't mean to use a tugging technique with a prong collar but, to avoid other folks thinking that tugging is okay with a prong, I think it needs to be made clear (in my opinion) that tugging and jerking of any sort should not be used with a prong.

 

The point of a prong is that, if the dog pulls, it is delivering its own punishment in proportion to the pulling. In addition, while I don't have a problem with judicious use of a prong in proper situatons (and I don't think going to stock is one of those situations, as there should be other, more productive methods of dealing with "eagerness" or silliness), I would be concerned that improper use of a prong would be detrimental.

 

I think use of a crate can be part of a training process but, as Anna points out, does not teach what you need to teach. We are experiencing this issue now with my older dog. He has been used to being the chore dog who goes out with me to feed. I need to be working more with the younger dog who, by nature, is not so comfortable a fit for me and isn't always well-suited for the job at hand, but needs the training and experience to develop.

 

When I take Bute out, you would not believe the crybaby sounds that Celt (normally a very quiet dog) makes in the house. If no one (namely, Ed) is in there to reprimand him (which is the normal situation), I just go and ignore him. I am finding that he is beginning to make less noise and quiet down sooner as he is getting no reward for his noisiness.

 

Meanwhile, Megan, who very rarely goes out for any chores, is very quiet when I take another dog out to work, as she is quite used to it. A lot of the issue is persistence and consistency, both great failings of mine. The dogs have become fairly good in quieting down with just an "ahht" if I am nearby or in the next room. I try to not have to go over to them because that, in itself, can be a reward.

 

What Jack Knox did with Bute (who raised a fuss at his first clinic with Jack, while chained to a fence within sight of the working area) when it was Celt's turn to work, was to go over to him, gruffly asking him what he thought he was doing, took hold of his chain, and gave him a tug everytime he made a sound. After some sessions with consistancy, Bute would wait quietly.

[stockdogranch]

I agree with what Sue said. As for working one in the field while the other is tied to the fence making noise, I start by working close enough to be able to get the noise maker's attention. Now, this also can cause more noise, as the stock are now pretty close, but overall, it seems to work. I also keep a handful of projectiles (6-8 inch sticks I find on the ground) handy. When the noisy one gets barking or whining, I lob one of the sticks in the dog's general direction--I'm not trying to hit it, just get their attention, so it usually lands on the ground kind of near the dog (that's as good as my aim is). This, along with an "ahhht" at the same time, seems to work pretty well. If you're consistent, they get the idea. Then, as you work farther away, a glance in their direction with an "ahhhht" seems to do it,

 

A

 

ETA: Oh, and I also start this as young as possible. Right now, Dottie, who is 9 weeks old, is learning to be tied and to stay quietly while the other dogs work. And yes, she definitely knows what sheep are!

[Sue R]

ETA: Oh, and I also start this as young as possible. Right now, Dottie, who is 9 weeks old, is learning to be tied and to stay quietly while the other dogs work. And yes, she definitely knows what sheep are!

 

I think this is very important, as Anna has said.

 

While good manners may go right out the window when a dog is first brought to sheep and the excitement and anticipation are overwhelming, good manners prior to sheep (or other exciting circumstances) will be an aid to developing good manners around sheep (or other exciting activities).