It's starting to click!

[JaderBug]

Jade and I had a herding lesson last night (a very belated one, it’s been about a month since the last one…) and it went wonderfully. I think this was probably about our oh 10th lesson or so? Anyway, I think things are starting to click for me, and I’m super excited. I’ve gotten in with her and the sheep a few times so far, and I’m surprised that I haven’t tripped up and fallen over yet, and I’m terribly grateful that the ewes don’t mind me leaning on them!!

 

I’m also glad that my trainer is patient with me, especially since I tend to mess Jade up when she’s doing something right or not correct something that she’s doing wrong. I think I need to come out of my shell when I’m working with her. I’m starting to understand the movements better too; we started attaching ‘come bye’ and ‘away’ to the directions. I’m learning that it doesn’t take much to get Jade to change directions, so I tend to mess it up pretty easily when I work with her. It doesn’t take much of a step to get in front of her, I’m used to trying to change directions for horses where I have to take big lunging steps…

 

Just goes to show how smart BCs are… I’m always amazed at what Jade remembers from the previous lesson (especially when it’s been a long time), this certainly seems to be very natural to her, and she loves doing it. She also likes the sheep poop. *G*

 

I’m planning on going to a stockdog trial next Wednesday, it should be a really good learning opportunity for me, and hopefully I can keep up with what’s going on. Ah the learning of a noob… I’ve been watching trials on YouTube too, and I was wondering… I realize I am light-years away from these, but at what point and how do you incorporate a whistle into your training?? Are the whistling commands generally the same or do they fit each person/dog differently? Also, how in the world do you teach a blind outrun? Watching a dog disappear over a hill and reappear with a bunch of sheep just amazes me... very cool.

[juliepoudrier]

I realize I am light-years away from these, but at what point and how do you incorporate a whistle into your training??

 

It depends on the dog, but I'd try to have whistles on now by the time I'm at the P/N level with a dog. (ETA: That doesn't always mean I'll use the whistles at that point, but the dog will likely be familiar with them at least.) I have one youngster who was a bit sensitive to my voice, so I opted to put whistles on her sooner rather than later. At the latest, you'd want whistles on by the time you got to the larger courses, because it really is bad form to be yelling at your dog over a distance of several hundred yards....

 

Are the whistling commands generally the same or do they fit each person/dog differently?

 

Individuals choose whistle commands on the basis of what works best for them. Sometimes that means using the same whistle set your instructor uses; sometimes it means coming up with whistles that work for you. There is no hard and fast rule.

 

Also, how in the world do you teach a blind outrun? Watching a dog disappear over a hill and reappear with a bunch of sheep just amazes me... very cool.

If you teach your dog from the very beginning that sheep will be "out there" in the direction you're facing, then the dog will learn to trust you that the sheep are indeed out there and will continue to run out and look for them until it finds them. You may have noticed discussions here where we've talked about teaching a dog to look for sheep and getting a young dog used to finding sheep in the direction in which the handler is facing. This is also why you'll sometimes see discussions about whether a handler should be allowed to leave the post and help a young dog find its sheep at a trial when the dog has failed to do so. It's all about getting the dog to understand that when you send it, there *will be* sheep out there, even if the dog can't see them. Once the dog is secure in that knowledge, you can start hiding sheep close by and sending the dog so that you can help it find the sheep. All of these things build the foundation that will create a dog who can do blind outruns.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

Here's an article about teaching a dog to do a blind outrun --

 

http://shooflyfarm.blogspot.com/2008/06/tr...-for-sheep.html

[Angie H]

Congrats on the great lesson, and thanks for sharing here...as a beginner, it gives me more education to read as others post answers to your questions.

[JaderBug]

Congrats on the great lesson, and thanks for sharing here...as a beginner, it gives me more education to read as others post answers to your questions.

 

My thoughts exactly... there's a lot of things about the sheepdog world that I am still clueless on (speaking of which, what is P/N or N/N or whatever mean?) and there's such a wealth of information and first hand knowledge on these boards... it's so easy to find what you're looking for.

 

I haven't ventured into the 'Training Discussion' board much yet, but I think I'm going to be in it much more now...

[juliepoudrier]

Rachel,

These definitions apply to trialing in the east:

N/N = novice/novice and is a class designation meant for novice handlers with novice dogs. Usually there will be a short outrun, a fetch, a wear through one set of drive panels, and a pen. Sometimes the course will consist of just an outrun, lift, and fetch to the pen. Other times, the course will be a little more difficult (a second set of panels to wear through or other obstacles to negotiate). In the northeast, a handler has the option of doing the wear, an assisted drive (walking with the dog behind the sheep while it drives the sheep through the panels), or a full drive.

 

P/N = pro-novice and is a class designation meaning that one part of the team may be "pro," either an open handler with a young/not fully trained dog or a novice handler with a fully trained dog. This is sort of a catch-all class in the east because you will also have novice handlers who have moved up from N/N or novice handlers with trained dogs, but not trained to the open level and so on. The P/N course has a slightly longer outrun and the dog is required to drive the sheep through the drive panel(s) while the handler remains at the post. Typically the P/N course will have a drive away and then return to the pen. On some courses, a short crossdrive might be required.

 

Ranch or open ranch (also referred to as advanced P/N at least at the Bluegrass) = a class that requires completion of the full open course, less the shed (and sometimes a slightly shorter outrun). The nursery (young dogs) course is usually the same as the ranch course. The full course is an outrun, lift, fetch, drive away through one set of panels, cross drive (parallel to handler's post usually) through a second set of panels, and then a return to the pen.

 

Open = highest level, open to all. Same course as above, except that a shed/split or single will also be required, either before or after the pen. Outruns would generally be 300+ yards, with the three legs of the drive approximately equal in total length to the length of the outrun (in theory).

 

In the west, there are usually just three levels, N/N, P/N, and open, with the western P/N the equivalent of the eastern open ranch. The reason for the variability (and there can be even more variability than this) is becuase the only classes sanctioned by the USBCHA are open and nursery, and so all other classes are at the discretion of the trial host or the local sanctioning club.

 

Since you are in Iowa, you would probably want to check first with the trial host (or your trainer should know) before entering a dog to make sure that you are entering in the appropriate class for your abilities. Actually, this isn't a bad idea for anyone who is unsure of what the class designations mean, but in your case, I just don't know what divisions are offered in that part of the country.

 

 

J.

[JaderBug]

Thanks for the info Julie... I have another one though, what is 'shedding'?

[juliepoudrier]

Shedding = general term for separating off sheep from one another. In this part of the country, where we rarely have the luxury of running five sheep at a time, a shed will generally either be a split (2 and 2 if running 4 sheep) or a single (separating one sheep off from the other two when running 3 sheep). When you have five sheep, typically in a trial you would take two off from the other three.

 

Basically, the sheep, dog, and handler enter an area (ring) marked on the ground in some fashion (e.g., piles of sawdust). The handler must stay on one side of the sheep and the dog on the other, and then the handler will call the dog through the sheep and the dog will turn on the sheep it is shedding off and drive them away from the remaining sheep. In general, you would also call your dog through in a way that would enable you to take the last however many sheep of the group off, as this is the most difficult form of shedding (e.g., say the sheep are facing to the left, then you would want to call the dog through so that it turned to face the rightmost sheep and took control of them, moving them away from the sheep still in front of them). It sounds fairly easy, but isn't always, since the sheep don't always line themselves out nicely or settle easily in the ring to give you a chance at a good shed. Every time the sheep leave the ring (step outside of it), you will lose points. If the handler and dog trade sides (that is, the dog flanks around to the the side the handler was on to start with and the handler steps through the sheep and ends up on the side the dog was on--not the same as pivoting around the axis of the sheep) you will lose points. If you call your dog through and it fails to come through, you'll lose points. If the judge deems that you had an opportunity to call your dog through and failed to do so, you'll lose points. If you call the dog through and it turns on the wrong sheep, you'll lose points or the shed won't be called, depending on the situation and judge. If the judge has said in the handler's meeting that you must take the last sheep (or last two sheep) "on the head" then that means that you must call your dog through on the shed in such a way that the dog is turning into the faces of the sheep that it is to take control of and drive away. If you fail to do so, the judge may either refuse to call the shed or take a lot of points off. Re: "calling the shed." Usually a judge will acknowledge to the handler that the handler and dog have completed the shed satisfactorily by calling the shed, that is, saying something like "Okay!" This is important because the judge can consider a shed not completed even when the handler thinks s/he has done the task (as in the dog not coming in on the heads or you call the dog through but it doesn't keep the sheep separated to the judge's satisfaction, that is, the sheep the dog was to hold or move away get past the dog and rejoin the other sheep before the dog has shown sufficient control of those sheep) and the task must be completed before you move on to the next obstacle (usually the pen) or can consider yourself to have completed the course (when the pen comes before the shed).

 

International shedding is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but still boils down to letting some sheep go and keeping others under control of the dog.

 

That's a pretty long explanation, sorry.

 

J.