Getting sheep out of corners/fence line

[kelpiegirl]

Can someone describe this for me? Best ways? Got sheep who love fence line, and corners.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It's like a tiny outrun. Don't forget to give the sheep somewhere to go, so make sure you are standing to one side or the other as you "send" your dog. Preferably, you will know which way is the greater draw and use that. Make what's "wrong" for the sheep difficult, and what's "right", easy.

 

You then have to be able to stop your dog "in the hole," or have a quick reverse flank so that the dog doesn't do what feels easiest, and flip around to the heads and put 'em right back in the corner. You can make this easy by sort of figure eight-ing youself.

 

Sometimes to get a dog started going in the hole, I'll send the dog and follow the dog in, and allow the dog to keep going around with me on his tail, back in, a few times until the dog is somewhat relaxed going in. If I feel that relaxation, I'll stop and walk backwards (away from the corner/fence) the next time, flipping back and forth as needed to help the dog wear the sheep out. Then I'll really quick put them BACK, repeat in the other direction, over and over until the dog is comfortable with the process AND the sheep are incidentally broken of mashing up against the fence.

 

If the dog needs to bite in the hole to get things started, that's fine. If he bites after the movement has already started, I'll warn him, but not harshly.

 

Sometimes it does take a while to get the sheep broken if they have really learned to take advantage. I try to resist the urge to stir things up, mess with the sheep, etc. I've learned over the years that it doesn't help break the sheep of doing that and the dog doesn't learn nearly as much as he does learning to take them off quietly but confidently.

 

I did a lot of this, this spring, with Ted. You can see a bit of it on the video with the calves.

It's at around 2:18 or so. I was having trouble reading the calves so it's not terribly obvious what I was doing.

 

Hope this helps.

[stockdogranch]

Lots of dogs can lack the confidence to go in there and get them out. If the dog keeps flip-flopping in and out of the right spot, in other words, won't stay in the pressure spot, I might take the dog on a leash, or with the hook of the crook through their collar and gently walk with them into that tight spot, using a real calm gentle voice encouraging them to get behind the stock. You being there with such a dog is often reassuring. The dog doesn't know the stock are moving partially off of your body, and it gives them confidence. I also will put sheep in a smallish pen, just a handful at first, later lots of sheep, and just make the dog go round them in there to get the dog comfortable squeezing between stock and a fence or corner. Let the dog just lie down (or stand, if it has one) being in close proximity to get them to relax. Like Becca, I don't worry about some biting initially unless it's excessive. Dogs that are a bit afraid to go in there don't get it overnight, but usually over time, they get more confidence.

 

A

[kelpiegirl]

No problem getting in there, but the sheep stick to the fence line, and run single file. That's the hard part. She's been in tight with them, and no problem there- she rather likes that work

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Run rings around them and hold them together - you and your dog - until you've broken them of running. Or, if you can get you and her switched fast enough, do figure eights.

 

Actually it's a bit hard to picture what you mean - do they not flock well? Is she not heading them? It's still like an outrun, so picture what would be happening on an outrun - it the issue that she is not moving them, or that she is not "gathering" them, or not wanting to make contact with them (this was Ted's issue)?

[stockdogranch]

I think what you're saying is that if they are in a corner, the dog initially goes in and gets behind them to bring them out, but then they just stay glued (running) along the fence line and won't peel off? With dog in pursuit along the fence? If that's it, sounds like the dog is still not staying in the pressure spot to pull them off the fence line and keep them off. Once she initially gets behind them, is she coming far enough around to cover them? Do you move yourself away from the fence so she understands she needs to be behind them to balance to you (and, hence, pull them off the fence)? How many sheep are you working when this happens? Can you try fewer sheep so there aren't as many to get behind and keep together?

 

A

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Anna

That's right. I learned that the biggest issue we have is when I send her opposite the direction of the draw- so she comes in, they turn away- toward where they want to go anyway, and go right up the fence. She hurries to get in there, but they are quite tight. She will then flip out to head them. I worked on corner work today- with less sheep and that was succesful- when there are too many, they will just jam up. We were able to work several of the corners succesfully. These aren't dogged sheep, and they don't like people, so they aren't drawn to me whatsoever. The other issue is that they will split. Lots of different stuff going on. It is all a learning experience, I guess! I also worked her too long. Sometimes, I could just slap myself.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Okay, they have to be broken, and your dog needs to learn to feel that pressure and use her power and eye in there. Pretend it's a packed pen or a round pen. In a packed pen, I want to get my dog in and walk round and round the sheep until everything calms down AND the dog is starting to run forward of me. I continue to encourage the dog and the next chance I get, we reverse (just like in a round pen, you turn and walk into the dog's face, then follow her tail). Keep going around that way until the dog is calmly taking control of the heads away from you (that's hard to explain, but you'll see that the sheep are calming down, moving from the dog, not fighting, etc). Next chance you get to pull them out, you back off and allow the dog to bring them off the fence. Then run back to the fence, walk down the fenceline and around their heads, have the dog go in there and bring them off again the other direction, turn around, walk around to the fence again so the dog has to reverse and go in the other way, rinse, repeat, until she's in full control of those sheep under every circumstance. Then progress to stopping in the hole. Then increase the pressure on the sheep - pack them in really tight with the dog, then ask her in and stop right in the hole and lift them out (there's a difference between stopping and letting them go, and stopping with the sheep completely under her control).

 

I'm totally not explaining this well. I need to make a video.

 

All right. I have to worm right now anyway, and it's these lambs that have hardly been worked, so there should be some similarities to your situation. Except, they've never learned they can mash up against the fence - but I can create that artificially by mashing them with Ted.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Becca

I sort of get it.... I worked her in the packed pen today, and she had absolutely no trouble squishing between them and the wall. But, outside, when they are headed for the draw- that's when she is LOATHE to put MORE pressure on- for fear they will just high tail it for the draw. To illustrate: Sheep facing south, I send the dog toward them. Sheep about face and turn north and run along the fence. Dog then comes off the fence to stop them. When things go well, sheep face north, dog comes in, sheep turn to face south, she comes in and for some reason, they come off the fence, and don't run it. Come to think of it, all points lead to Egypt... All of our succesful corners were that which ended up having her take them away from the draw, so that they had no reason to stick to the fence.

 

We made good progress today. For the most part, when I flanked her while they were in the corner, she just calmly walked up, and in, and then covered to keep them to me. I guess we need just more practice. Corner work is very important. For some reason, I thought the transition from packed pen to field fence corner would be simply done. Oh well

 

Video would be extremely wonderful!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's several parts to what you need anything the sheep are using a physical obstacle to put pressure on the dog. The dog has to go in, both ways you ask - first anyway that it happens, then with more and more control (ie not frantic and in contact with the sheep). Then the dog needs to reverse on the opposite side of the hole when asked, comfortably. The the dog has to reverse inside the hole wen asked (and when "asked" I use body language at first - going to verbal commands is the next level, and I start all over from scratch for that). After that I'll look for signs the the dog is going to be comfortable stopping when asked. Sometimes the dog will actually stop on its own. If that happens I'll try to ask for a stop a second before it's really needed and then ask for a walkup right away because you don't want a dog that will think what you want is for the dog to lie there on the lift. *ahemTedahemcough*

 

Anyway, those transitions was what I was hoping to get a video of. It kind of didn't happen, I don't think. I may be able to piece together what I did get, so that it shows the different stages. The problem was that I forgot to sort the old ram out, and the session turned into working on Ted handling the ram, who was very grumpy. It was a good session and we got a lot done, but as often happens you have to work with the problem the dog needs work on, not an arbitrary agenda.

 

Well, anyway, I'll work on it later - I've got another video to post that is like a week overdue, but we've had some kind of crazy flu-like gunk this week and I've still got it apparently.