Training Brother and Sister

[Anne-Marie]

We have Brother and Sister (5mths old) BCs ex farm and from long line of working dogs. Names are Duchesse and Dylan. No probs with crate, toilet name recognition etc but when together they (like human babies) bounce off each other will not walk easily and do not like one being e.g tought to walk to heel. So far we take one out on walk and teach the other.

 

We are not pushing and will not start any real agility of sheep work until about 1 yr old.

 

Anybody out there with "twins" who might have advice for us?

[Sue R]

Welcome! This forum is an excellent resource for anyone who is involved with Border Collies.

 

Unless someone is very experienced, most responsible breeders will not place two pups together with the same owner. As you've seen, they tend to bond closely together and be more "involved" with each other than with you. What you are doing in terms of separating them and working with just one at a time is the right thing to do for training situations, including walks and interaction times with you.

 

Some people recommend separating youngsters in kennels but I think that, with sufficient one-on-one time with you (and any other people that are involved in the training of these dogs), you should be able to accomplish your training and teach them to focus on you rather than on each other when it is appropriate. But you will need to make sure that you provide individual training and interaction time with you for each.

 

What you are seeing is very normal and it is a matter of you managing the situation to make your training time worthwhile.

 

Another concern I would have is to be prepared to spay/neuter your dogs - your bitch could start coming into season any time from six months (pretty early for most Border Collies) to a year and a half or so. Unintentional breedings of unproven dogs are bad enough but a brother/sister mating is definitely not desireable. If your dogs are of a quality (which won't be known until they are suitably trained, worked, and proven as breeding-worthy sheepdogs) for breeding, you will have to make sure to separate them whenever the bitch is in season, and that can be a challenge in itself as the drive to reproduce is often very strong and persistent.

 

You will find a number of topics about this issue if you use the search function at the top of the page, and also "Welcome to the BC Boards - Read this", the announcement at the top of this section of the boards.

 

Best wishes!

[Anne-Marie]

Welcome! This forum is an excellent resource for anyone who is involved with Border Collies.

 

Unless someone is very experienced, most responsible breeders will not place two pups together with the same owner. As you've seen, they tend to bond closely together and be more "involved" with each other than with you. What you are doing in terms of separating them and working with just one at a time is the right thing to do for training situations, including walks and interaction times with you.

 

Some people recommend separating youngsters in kennels but I think that, with sufficient one-on-one time with you (and any other people that are involved in the training of these dogs), you should be able to accomplish your training and teach them to focus on you rather than on each other when it is appropriate. But you will need to make sure that you provide individual training and interaction time with you for each.

 

What you are seeing is very normal and it is a matter of you managing the situation to make your training time worthwhile.

 

Another concern I would have is to be prepared to spay/neuter your dogs - your bitch could start coming into season any time from six months (pretty early for most Border Collies) to a year and a half or so. Unintentional breedings of unproven dogs are bad enough but a brother/sister mating is definitely not desireable. If your dogs are of a quality (which won't be known until they are suitably trained, worked, and proven as breeding-worthy sheepdogs) for breeding, you will have to make sure to separate them whenever the bitch is in season, and that can be a challenge in itself as the drive to reproduce is often very strong and persistent.

 

You will find a number of topics about this issue if you use the search function at the top of the page, and also "Welcome to the BC Boards - Read this", the announcement at the top of this section of the boards.

 

Best wishes!

 

Many thanks Sue we are organized for spay/neutering as soon as our vet gives the word as having had some rather special dogs in the past (one with proven line back to the time of "old hemp") we are very much concerned with maintaining breed quality (working) and to be frank are not geared for serious breeding. We took the pair - now for the soft bit - because out of the litter of one male and 5 females these two were constantly together so we have the responsibility to turn them into a real brace!!!

 

once again thanks and yes the forum is excellent.

 

john

[Sue R]

John - Well, it seems you are very much on top of things and I wish you the best.

 

We often get folks here who don't realize what responsible breeding and maintaining the breed is all about, and so I got on my bandwagon and had to put that in my post.

 

One thing you might wish to discuss with your vet is the concept of not neutering your male at least until his growth plates close (usually around 14 months of age or so). I am not sure if it is the same issue in bitches but some folks and research indicates that too-early neutering for dogs may result in less-than-optimal adult bone structure, in the front legs primarily. You can check that out with a search on past topics dealing with this. Others may chime in with better information than I can.

 

I hope someday to be capable of working my two dogs as a brace but, as I am quite the novice and still have my hands full trying to work one at a time reasonably, that will remain a goal for the future. Having cattle rather than sheep on our small farm means that it would be very good to be able to work two at a time when needed. Sometimes, one is not enough when the cows are not willing to cooperate.

[Anne-Marie]

John - Well, it seems you are very much on top of things and I wish you the best.

 

We often get folks here who don't realize what responsible breeding and maintaining the breed is all about, and so I got on my bandwagon and had to put that in my post.

 

One thing you might wish to discuss with your vet is the concept of not neutering your male at least until his growth plates close (usually around 14 months of age or so). I am not sure if it is the same issue in bitches but some folks and research indicates that too-early neutering for dogs may result in less-than-optimal adult bone structure, in the front legs primarily. You can check that out with a search on past topics dealing with this. Others may chime in with better information than I can.

 

I hope someday to be capable of working my two dogs as a brace but, as I am quite the novice and still have my hands full trying to work one at a time reasonably, that will remain a goal for the future. Having cattle rather than sheep on our small farm means that it would be very good to be able to work two at a time when needed. Sometimes, one is not enough when the cows are not willing to cooperate.

 

Sue: thanks for the complement hope we can live up to it. We will discuss the 14 mth issue with the vet. As soon as I work out how to put pics on post I will - also we will do our profile. I envy you yr farm we use our friends place. They run goats (milking) sheep and beef cattle their two dogs manage the lot good to watch them in action.

 

Have you come across the book "Sheepdogs my faithful friends" by Eric Halsall (published in UK) He shares the bandwagon all down the line i quote a little "A wise man learns from his dogs and when the natural intelligence of tested bloodlines coupled with sympathetic training and handling are fortunate enough to have a dash of that mysterious quality known as method, the result is canine genius." The book is a joy!

 

Thanks again

john

[Sue R]

It is certainly a wonderful book and well-regarded by many on this forum. His affection for working Border Collies (and the harm that breeding for anything else, like showing or the pet market) is very obvious. He has such a wealth of knowledge of handlers, dogs, and bloodlines - it's amazing and a wonderfully good and educational read.

 

My husband and I have just a small farm and are fortunate that our cows have been worked by dogs for some years and so are generally good with the dogs. However, since the advent of coyotes in our area (a real problem for sheep farmers, they are more an inconvenience for cattle farmers), some of the cows have become much more aggressive concerning the dogs when they have calves at side. So, we have to be more careful and understanding when working with them to avoid stress (on everybody's part).

 

I envy you the opportunity (in the future, at least) of training and working with sheep and goats. I are limited to training on sheep once a month at best (my trainer is 145 miles away and so it's a long day with almost three hours of driving each way) and don't have suitable training stock here at home (so our young dog especially is progressing slowly due to lack of opportunities). I hope to have sheep sometime soon but that will depend on a number of factors (including, primarily, money as we'll need to build better fencing for a few smaller paddocks and a shed, and maybe get a livestock guard dog, and get the sheep - get the picture?).

 

There are some threads in the Gallery section that explain how to post pictures. I'm sure everyone will be looking forward to seeing your dogs and your area. This is overall a very friendly and civil forum (we can get a little hot about irresponsible breeding and topics that people are particularly passionate about, like the unsuitability of the show ring for the future of a working breed like the Border Collie).