Question re food lures in obedience training

[Coppertop]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm learning so much but have so much more to learn! I'm having some issues with my 1-1/2 year old Border Collie who I adopted 9 weeks ago. As background, he has not had any prior obedience training and his prior owner kept him outside 24/7. We have recently started beginning obedience training using the clicker and food lures. We are starting the second week now and he will only sit if I use a food lure. Sometimes after practicing sit, down, stand with clicker and food lure he will do the commands without the food lure but an hour later he won't do them at all without food lure. My question is how long do I continue to use the food lure? He is extremely stubborn and is used to doing his own thing so we are having to unlearn some bad behavior, i.e., mouthing, hyperactivity, tug of war with leash (don't get me started on that !). Should he be doing his basic commands without food lures by now? Or am I being impatient with him?

[lrayburn]

Hi Coppertop,

Are you still using the same hand motion/body language when you ask your dog to perform the behavior without the food lure? Usually when people have problems like this they are failing to fade the lure effectively.

 

Dogs cue off of physical signals more readily than words so if you were moving your hand past the dog's head to lure him into a sit, make sure you do the EXACT SAME motion as you used with the food (only with no food in your hand) and then quickly reward him with a food treat coming from your other (nonsignal) hand. Once he's learned to follow a hand with no food for a reward that he can't see, you can start to fade out your body language so that the orignal lure motion becomes a more refined hand signal and start a variable reinforcement schedule.

 

Since your dog has never "learned to learn" before, you are probably expecting a little too much too fast.

 

Are you going to a class or working on your own? A good trainer should be able to tell you where the breakdown is happening. If you are working on your own, Patricia McConnell's book "Family Friendly Dog Training" breaks things down wonderfully into a 6 week program and I highly recommend it.

Lisa

[2BCs&D]

I'm new to the Boards also! Attached is a link regarding information on luring and rewarding, it's easy reading and understanding, very nicely explained. I don't think dogs are "stubborn", I think dogs sometimes don't understand what we want from them. Remember dogs do what is rewarding for them. You're best tool will be patience.

 

http://www.hollysden.com/Basic-dog-and-pup...p;_Food_Rewards

 

MD

[Jedismom]

Jedi did that when I first started phasing out the food. I kept at it though and now he does it whether I have food or not. I just think that at first he thought this was some sort of food game and without the food why play? So keep at it!

[Root Beer]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm learning so much but have so much more to learn! I'm having some issues with my 1-1/2 year old Border Collie who I adopted 9 weeks ago. As background, he has not had any prior obedience training and his prior owner kept him outside 24/7. We have recently started beginning obedience training using the clicker and food lures. We are starting the second week now and he will only sit if I use a food lure.

 

At this point I honestly wouldn't worry about this.

 

Sometimes after practicing sit, down, stand with clicker and food lure he will do the commands without the food lure but an hour later he won't do them at all without food lure. My question is how long do I continue to use the food lure? He is extremely stubborn and is used to doing his own thing so we are having to unlearn some bad behavior, i.e., mouthing, hyperactivity, tug of war with leash (don't get me started on that !). Should he be doing his basic commands without food lures by now? Or am I being impatient with him?

 

Taking everything into consideration, I think you are trying to move too fast.

 

Since you are using clicker, this is what I would do.

 

Practice a sit 3 times with the food lure. Click and treat each time the dog's rump hits the floor.

 

The fourth time, put the food in your clicker hand and "fake lure" the sit. Click and treat.

 

Lure another sit. Click and treat.

 

Fake lure another sit. Click and treat.

 

If the dog is doing OK with the fake lure, try doing two of those in a row - click and treat each time.

 

I would gradually fade the actual lure until the dog could do four out of five sits with the fake lure.

 

Then I would try using an open palm hand signal for one sit - click and treat. Now mix up the lure, fake lure, and open palm hand signal.

 

Once the dog has it on the open palm hand signal, you can begin to make that gesture smaller until it is a regular hand signal. At that point I would add in the verbal cue.

 

I would do the same process for the down.

 

I tend to lure much longer than the "rules" say that you are supposed to. In the long run, my dogs know their behaviors solidly and do them on cue without food. Don't worry if it takes a long time. Your dog will get it, and you will probably find the "stubborness", as you see it, lessening as your dog starts to learn some behaviors solidly.