Training question - Attention/obedience

[Liz K]

Hi, All!

 

Asking for some advice here. My instructor "demoted" us. We spent our last lesson doing obedience in the arena on a prong collar while there were sheep in the barn. The instructor's thinking is that Haley needs to pay more attention to me when we're out on the field. I agree that there are times that she forgets that I am in her world, let alone her universe...but I was instructed that this is my "lesson" to practice for our next session. No working sheep. Just obedience on a prong collar in the arena with the sheep.

 

Does anyone have any other/better ways of creating attention between dog and handler? I mean, I felt like what we were going for was "AKC obedience neck" where the dog never takes her eyes off of me in the arena...and that just doesn't feel right because she's also supposed to be watching the sheep. I was supposed to "pop" her when she looked at the sheep, even when they were in her line of sight.

 

Anyone been through this before?

Liz & Haley (who was REEEEALLY frustrated that she did not get to work sheep at all on Sunday...)

[juliepoudrier]

I think correcting the dog for looking at the sheep is asking for trouble later. I wouldn't have a dog who wasn't keen to get to the sheep, especially a young/beginner dog. I'd find another trainer if at all possible.

 

J.

[Chesney's Girl]

I would agree with Julie. Find another trainer. I am having a problem with Chesney NOT watching his sheep enough because some time ago, I'm not really sure when it started to happen, he started looking at me and I looked back. Now we have this habit to break in the both of us!

 

When I was at Jack Knox's clinic a few weeks ago, I loved what he said to me about Chesney, he said the eyes were for looking at the sheep and the ears were for listening to me. It makes perfect sense! It's possible that you need to change your tone to "remind" her that you are still very much in the picture and if she wants to continue to work she best be remembering that. I don't think a prong collar and obedience with sheep in the arena is very fair. Its teasing the dog and like you said making her more frustrated.

[Liz K]

Julie & Danielle -

 

Wow! Someone else who's thinking about training on Christmas Eve! I knew I was in good company!

 

Thank you for "saying out loud" what I was thinking. I really felt uncomfortable and stressed by forcing her to do that. My trainer is not a BC person, and I really need to find a respected BC trainer in my area. Haley's got great focus on the sheep and I don't want to mess that up. Widen her outrun...get better pacing on her drive...get a little more confident in pulling sheep off grain...yeah. Quit looking at sheep...not so much.

 

Thanks again -

Liz, Dryden & Haley

[Sue R]

Somebody once said to me that it's too easy for anyone to hang out their shingle as a sheepdog trainer, but that didn't mean they were one. Sounds to me like you got one of those.

 

I absolutely agree with Julie and Danielle. It does sound like someone who doesn't know what they are doing and doing it from an AKC/obedience perspective rather than someone who is trying to develop and shape the natural instinct in the dog.

 

As for the prong collar, while I believe they have their place and are not inhumane when used properly, a leash pop should never be used with one. Ever. They work for dogs that pull because the pressure they exert is directly related to how hard the dog pulls, not because you can pull or tug on the lead to exert pressure. It sounds like this so-called trainer doesn't understand the correct use of a prong, either.

 

Run, don't walk to find a new trainer. It is worth going further and paying more to get good instruction. Bad instruction, especially when you are laying the foundations with your dog, can be disastrous.

 

Best wishes from someone whose dogs don't sleep in, even on Christmas Day (and if they did, I couldn't sleep in, anyway).

[kelpiegirl]

What they said. Glad that you thought to ask- and no more of that. Does your trainer compete in upper levels of USBCHA trials?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I actually had to do something similar with Cord at my last lesson with him, but there were key differences - he's not just starting out, I was using a verbal correction for a hard look at the sheep when we were just putzing around in the field (I doubt a young dog would be doing what he was doing), if we didn't get what we wanted, he'd get completely "taken out of the work", and the goal was not "look at me" but "no working the sheep when I don't ask you to."

 

Here's what he looked like so you can see the difference. We'd be 100 yards from the sheep and he'd be fixing them with his eye so intently, that even if he was walking with me, he'd trip me up because he was so oblivious to me - he'd even run into stuff around here he was so clueless. And the sheep would be looking at him - he was "working" even if he couldn't quite move the sheep.

 

As I said, the goal was different - not to have him look at me, but to just break that hard look. I corrected the look, and rewarded his looking right at me, but the effect was to have him split the difference - aware of the sheep, aware of me, but actually, uh, looking where we were both walking.

 

Yes, it has been fixing his attitude on sheep - I've been working on a couple of (for me) difficult situations where I need a more mechanical response, and he's starting to give me that. But again, this was a different situation - we weren't trying to help him develop natural abilities, he's a mature dog - Robin was trying to give me a tool to correct a situation that's not going to go away in an eight going on nine year old dog, and to help him with sheep that aren't fair to a dog in an open field situation (at my place).

 

Back to your implied question. I'd find another instructor if you have that option. This is one place that all-breed instructors who come from a background of low instinct dogs, do wrong by talented dogs. Their answer for problems tends to be "more obedience" rather than "trust the dog to find his own way, correct what's not right and leave the good stuff alone."

 

Yeah, we got up early and did chores so I can work the snot out of everyone right before we leave, since we'll be gone all day. The puppers each get a chicken, or (for Ben) a while rabbit for Christmas, but the pups and Cord will have to hang out in the kennels.

[Liz K]

No, this person is a self proclaimed non expert on Border Collies. Competes in all breed venues with a different, upright breed of dog. I've heard from others that I need to find a BC person. If anyone can suggest a trainer in the Ohio area privately off list, that would be appreciated. If that's not allowed, sorry I asked, did not mean to break rules...I AM only a junior member on the list!!

 

What they said. Glad that you thought to ask- and no more of that. Does your trainer compete in upper levels of USBCHA trials?

[Liz K]

Becca,

 

Haley does that kind of thing, too, but not so intently that she forgets where she is walking. At least, not yet. I have to be careful where I park when I go to the farm because she will work the sheep from the car. She can break it off if I reprimand her...well, for a second or so...but she does not relax around the sheep. She has learned not to pull me to the gate, and that she's not getting through the gate until I say she's getting in. Would love to hear more specific details about dealing with that type of problem as well. (I thought the DOG was supposed to mesmerize the SHEEP!! LOL!)

 

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you and your crew...sounds like a holiday feast!

Liz, Iago, Dryden & Haley

 

I actually had to do something similar with Cord at my last lesson with him, but there were key differences - he's not just starting out, I was using a verbal correction for a hard look at the sheep when we were just putzing around in the field (I doubt a young dog would be doing what he was doing), if we didn't get what we wanted, he'd get completely "taken out of the work", and the goal was not "look at me" but "no working the sheep when I don't ask you to."

 

Here's what he looked like so you can see the difference. We'd be 100 yards from the sheep and he'd be fixing them with his eye so intently, that even if he was walking with me, he'd trip me up because he was so oblivious to me - he'd even run into stuff around here he was so clueless. And the sheep would be looking at him - he was "working" even if he couldn't quite move the sheep.

 

As I said, the goal was different - not to have him look at me, but to just break that hard look. I corrected the look, and rewarded his looking right at me, but the effect was to have him split the difference - aware of the sheep, aware of me, but actually, uh, looking where we were both walking.

[Sue R]

What part of Ohio are you in? If you are talking about the person I think you might be talking about, I would definitely find a new trainer.

 

John Lavelle, in east-central OH, sponsors several clinics a year. One of those clinicians is Elvin Kopp, whom I would highly recommend. Elvin has given three clinics at John's, and I anticipate he will do so in 2008, probably in later May and again in October (if he follows the previous schedule). John also puts on a winter series of cattledog/sheepdog arena trials for the Buckeye Cow Dog Association, and usually a few trials at other times in the year. You can check these out at www.buckeyecowdog.com or contact John through his website www.lavellefarms.com to see what is scheduled. If you get on John's emailing list, he will notify you of clinics and trials. These two websites do not appear to have any 2008 listings or information at this time. John maintains both sites but I know he has been extremely busy of late.

 

Bruce and Linda Fogt are located west of Columbus, about an 1-1 /2 hours. They are both excellent but I do not know if they give lessons. I think you can contact them through www.working-border-collie.com (the website for the Working Border Collie Magazine, which they produce).

 

Claudia Frank is located in south-central OH (I believe). She puts on several clinics by Marc Christopher each year. They are usually listed in Sheepdog-L. I am not familiar with any of his methods but I have seen Claudia handle her dogs at John's arena trials and felt she was a very nice handler. I don't have any contact info for her but you could find it by searching at Sheepdog-L.

 

Best wishes in finding the right trainer for you and your dog. Better to travel further, pay a bit more, and get fewer but better lessons, than to waste time, money, and potential by training with someone who isn't capable or suitable.