Starting to work with sheep.

[scmense]

I have always been a dog person, they have just always been labs. Last year I started spending time on a large ranch in Western Kansas. The owner and I have become friends and I plan on spending every April, May and June on his ranch. Come home for July and August then go back for September, October and part of November. This spring, after much research, I got a BC pup. She spent five months this year around cattle and shows lots of desire. She was always kept on a leash in a utv but was around cattle daily. We are now back home in S.E. Kansas and I want to start teaching her direction. The closest sheep I have found available to work with are 45 miles away. We start Tuesday. I just want to spend a few weeks teaching her come bye, away to me and basic commands. I would like to do a training session daily but the mileage is a limitation. Today I talked to a local rancher who has some goats that are under a year old. He told me I was welcome to use them if I wanted. Since there are no goat dogs, lol, I take it they have less herding instinct or are more independent? I grew up around cattle and know nothing of sheep and goats. My main concern is not to hurt the dogs natural ability for herding stock, she is out of working parents with strong ability. We both have a lot to learn and can't wait to start the process, she is a wonderful teacher. Too darn smart for her own good sometimes. Are these young goats a possilbe aid or should it be considered unwise for training?

[stockdogranch]

The goats should be fine AFTER THE DOG HAS LEARNED SOME BASICS. You want to make sure you get some ground rules on the dog first, with some dog-broke sheep. Then, after you both have a little experience under your belts, the goats will probably be OK. Most goats do not flock as well as sheep, and can be a bit more obstinate, which, if you plan on using your dog on cattle, is a good stepping-stone between sheep and cattle. But it's really important to make sure you both have a decent foundation first,

A

[Sue R]

You should post this question in the "Training Discussion" under Working Stockdogs, where the folks who use/train their dogs for stockwork post.

 

Many top trainers will tell you that a good working dog will work stock - whether it be cattle, sheep, goats, ducks, turkeys, or whatever - because a good dog will read its stock and work it appropriately.

 

I am quite a novice but I have had the opportunity to work my one dog on young Boer goats a few times and found them terrific. They flock somewhat like sheep but are a bit more independent like cattle. The young ones aren't so clever or challenging as adult goats (some dairy-cross adolescent/adult goats that are dog-wise can be very hard to work, and should not be used for young dogs/pups as they will size them up and may pose way too much challenge for them or even be detrimental to their training).

 

The best stock to train a youngster on is dog-broke but not sour stock. Sheep (or young goats, I expect) that will give to the pressure of the dog and approach the handler easily, so that the dog/pup can bring the stock to you and/or wear it (as you move away, the dog will continue bringing the stock to you and balance in the right position to do so). Dog-broke stock is appropriate for a youngster. Sour stock may (like adult goats) be too contrary and challenging to a young dog/pup.

 

The best advice I can give you is to find a good instructor to begin and oversee your training. That will help minimize your mistakes (and mistakes in foundation training are the hardest to overcome, I believe), train your pup and maintain his confidence, and make sure that both of you start and learn on appropriate stock. It will be worth time, the mileage, and the money to do it right from the first.

 

I hope that someone on these boards can recommend a trainer. Look for someone whose handling of their own dogs you admire and respect, and who is a proven trainer/handler of top-quality dogs (someone who successfully trials at USBCHA Open level and not AKC "trials"). Many "all breed" trainers are oriented towards the AKC/hobby-herding folks, but some are also excellent trainers of working Border Collies.

 

If a good handler isn't available within a doable distance for you, consider taking a clinic with a respected clinician, like Jack or Kathy Knox, Scott Glen, or Elvin Kopp, among others. A clinic provides a great deal of instruction/information in a multi-day program.

 

A green handler with a green youngster working on unbroke, green stock might present way too many difficulties for you and your dog to learn and progress as you could under better circumstances. It's like of like the old adage that you put a green rider on an experienced, schoolmaster horse or an experienced rider on a green horse, but never a green rider on a green horse, to maximize progress and minimize potential disasterous results.

 

Best wishes!

 

Whoops! I was writing this while Anna was posting and she said it all more succinctly and from the vantage point of a great deal of experience.

[scmense]

The goats should be fine AFTER THE DOG HAS LEARNED SOME BASICS. You want to make sure you get some ground rules on the dog first, with some dog-broke sheep. Then, after you both have a little experience under your belts, the goats will probably be OK. Most goats do not flock as well as sheep, and can be a bit more obstinate, which, if you plan on using your dog on cattle, is a good stepping-stone between sheep and cattle. But it's really important to make sure you both have a decent foundation first,

A

I hope this is posted in the right place. My computer skills are lacking. My main focus on day one will be to enter the pen with three sheep and keep the dog under control. I will have Koda on a ten foot rope. I will always try to stay between her and the sheep. We will start with a short lead with me between the sheep and her. The main lesson on day one will be control and I will focus on the come bye and away to me commands. If I don't focus on something other than control it seems we will just be wandering around wasting time.

[stockdogranch]

As Sue says, please find someone to help you get started. You do not want to "always stay between her and the sheep." The only time you are ever between her and the sheep is when you first send her around them to gather them, and that's just so you can make sure she goes round properly. After that, as Sue says, you spend your time with her bringing the sheep to you. So it's the sheep between you and the dog, so the dog is always in the balance position--a position to bring the stock to you. If you spend your time between her and the stock, you are teaching her NOT to go to the stock--you are "fending" the dog off the stock. This simply frustrates the dog, as it's not being allowed to work. Nothing good will result.

 

You cannot expect much (or any, really) "control" with an inexperienced dog on day one (in fact, if a dog shows a great deal of control around stock on day one, it's not much of a dog, as the desire to get to the stock should override everything else in its life), nor can you really "focus on away and come bye commands." You simply need to get the dog going to balance, and understanding to move off of your body. Teaching a dog to work stock is not a simple thing; it is MUCH more complex (like a gazillion times more complex) than teaching a dog to lie down or something of that nature--it takes a great deal of practice, patience, and an understanding of what the goals are, as well as the steps taken to build up to those goals. Most stockwork is built in very small increments, and the exercise you do to build a particular skill may not even resemble the desired skill or goal much at all, but it's a building block in the foundation.

 

As much as many of us would like it to be different, teaching a dog to work stock (without making so many mistakes that the dog gets completely screwed up in the process) is really NOT something that one can do on his/her own; you really need an experienced, qualified person to SHOW you what to do,

A

[Sue R]

Anna has given you some wonderful advice! Until you can get competent help, please do not work your dog on stock. NOTHING WILL TAKE THE PLACE OF A GOOD TRAINER FOR YOU AND YOUR PUP. Mistakes you make in your foundation work will affect everything you try to do with your dog. They are not necessarily insurmountable but it is better to do it right from the beginning than to muck it up and have to fix it (and trust me but I speak from sad experience).

 

If help is not available close enough to you right now, you might try viewing one of the excellent training DVDs available or reading one of the good books in print to get an idea of what and how you are trying to accomplish training your young dog.

 

A book that I like to explain the basic concepts of training in a very reable form is Derek Scrimgeour's "Talking Sheepdogs". I would recommend "The Shepherd's Pup" by Derek Scrimgeour (or his new video - you can get any of these from Sheepdogs in Action) as an excellent DVD.

 

Other videos/books are reviewed in the new section on videos and books here. You could also ask for recommendations there or try the search function (at the top of the page) to find prior posts about training books and videos.

 

Try attending some USBCHA sheepdog/cattledog trials, seeing who handles their dogs in a calm, low-stress manner and whose relationship with their dogs you admire, and ask questions and seek recommendations for a trainer in your area or a clinician that might be holding a clinic close enough for you to attend with your dog. You can find the calendar for USBCHA trials at the USBCHA website, along with contact information to get directions, etc. Sheepdog/cattledog trial hosts are often looking for volunteer help and that is a wonderful way to meet the very kind of people that can help steer you in the right direction.

 

I am not trying to be critical - I am wanting to give you the benefit of my experiences, for better or for worse, so that you and your dog may have a long and satisfying partnership together.

[scmense]

Anna has given you some wonderful advice! Until you can get competent help, please do not work your dog on stock. NOTHING WILL TAKE THE PLACE OF A GOOD TRAINER FOR YOU AND YOUR PUP. Mistakes you make in your foundation work will affect everything you try to do with your dog. They are not necessarily insurmountable but it is better to do it right from the beginning than to muck it up and have to fix it (and trust me but I speak from sad experience).

 

If help is not available close enough to you right now, you might try viewing one of the excellent training DVDs available or reading one of the good books in print to get an idea of what and how you are trying to accomplish training your young dog.

 

A book that I like to explain the basic concepts of training in a very reable form is Derek Scrimgeour's "Talking Sheepdogs". I would recommend "The Shepherd's Pup" by Derek Scrimgeour (or his new video - you can get any of these from Sheepdogs in Action) as an excellent DVD.

 

Other videos/books are reviewed in the new section on videos and books here. You could also ask for recommendations there or try the search function (at the top of the page) to find prior posts about training books and videos.

 

Try attending some USBCHA sheepdog/cattledog trials, seeing who handles their dogs in a calm, low-stress manner and whose relationship with their dogs you admire, and ask questions and seek recommendations for a trainer in your area or a clinician that might be holding a clinic close enough for you to attend with your dog. You can find the calendar for USBCHA trials at the USBCHA website, along with contact information to get directions, etc. Sheepdog/cattledog trial hosts are often looking for volunteer help and that is a wonderful way to meet the very kind of people that can help steer you in the right direction.

 

I am not trying to be critical - I am wanting to give you the benefit of my experiences, for better or for worse, so that you and your dog may have a long and satisfying partnership together.

I appreciate the help and information. I will not take my dog into the pen on Tuesday. I will ask the trainer who was going to guide me to go in. I am probably too concerned for the sheep on the intitial outings. It seemed to me that the only way to keep the dog from biting the sheep was to stay between her and the sheep, just initially, until she knows over agressiveness will not be tolerated. I am sure a majority of her aggressiveness is due to fear. I think she will calm down once she has spent some time in the pen. Now you have me curious to see how the initial training sessions handle the dogs aggressiveness. I know now the trainer won't get between the dog and sheep so am anxious to learn how it is done. Thanks for the help and please be patient with my computer skills and lack of knowledge about sheep. Koda and I will be training late afternoon on Tuesday, will keep you informed how things progressed. Also, I will check out the book and DVD of Scrimgeour's. My library is growing. Thanks again for the help.

[Sue R]

We need to ask Eileen to move this thread to the Training Discussion under Working Stockdogs. I am sure we will get more discussion and good advice there.

 

It seemed to me that the only way to keep the dog from biting the sheep was to stay between her and the sheep, just initially, until she knows over agressiveness will not be tolerated. I am sure a majority of her aggressiveness is due to fear. I think she will calm down once she has spent some time in the pen.

 

Sounds like she has had some exposure to sheep and you have a good idea why she is grippy. Many eager youngsters are "all mouth" until that first excitement/fear is overcome by the instinct to balance and work, which is why having someone experienced and capable help start your pup. Worry and fear can often be seen in gripping when a youngster or older dog is not capable or is concerned about controlling its stock.

 

The good dogs come "wired" with instinct but it takes proper channeling of that instinct to bring out the best of the dog and develop it into useful, low-stress work. That, plus the need for you to learn how to fulfill your end of the partnership, is why having a good instructor is so important. Any training session is as much (maybe more?) of a handler training session because the dog will never be able to work as your partner unless you are doing your part. As for myself, the great Jack Knox has said I am my dog's biggest problem, and he's right. A good trainer will be teaching you what you need to understand and do to guide and help your dog achieve his potential. That is a major reason why I am encouraging you to get good training and am pleased that you are listening to Anna's excellent advice.

 

Very best wishes and keep us posted!

[scmense]

We need to ask Eileen to move this thread to the Training Discussion under Working Stockdogs. I am sure we will get more discussion and good advice there.

Sounds like she has had some exposure to sheep and you have a good idea why she is grippy. Many eager youngsters are "all mouth" until that first excitement/fear is overcome by the instinct to balance and work, which is why having someone experienced and capable help start your pup. Worry and fear can often be seen in gripping when a youngster or older dog is not capable or is concerned about controlling its stock.

 

The good dogs come "wired" with instinct but it takes proper channeling of that instinct to bring out the best of the dog and develop it into useful, low-stress work. That, plus the need for you to learn how to fulfill your end of the partnership, is why having a good instructor is so important. Any training session is as much (maybe more?) of a handler training session because the dog will never be able to work as your partner unless you are doing your part. As for myself, the great Jack Knox has said I am my dog's biggest problem, and he's right. A good trainer will be teaching you what you need to understand and do to guide and help your dog achieve his potential. That is a major reason why I am encouraging you to get good training and am pleased that you are listening to Anna's excellent advice.

 

Very best wishes and keep us posted!

Wow what an exciting experience. It was difficult to watch the trainer and not my dog when they were working. What a ballet of position between the dog, sheep and trainer. Koda was doing better, control wise, at the end of the lesson than at the beginning. I am so proud of her.

[bcnewe2]

There are some great sheep dog people in your area. Check out the Show Me Stock Dog League (sorry I don't know how to make that a hyper link) they are based around the KC area. You can do a google search and find the league website. They have lots of good stock dog people associated with the club. I'm also pretty sure they'll have information about a clinic this weekend in Butler MO with Jack Knox. If not or you don't find the website, I can give you contact info if you are interested in going to watch and meet people as I think the working spots are filled.

 

Good luck in your new quest. You will be constantly amazed at what these dogs can do and what we have to learn.

 

Kristen

[scmense]

There are some great sheep dog people in your area. Check out the Show Me Stock Dog League (sorry I don't know how to make that a hyper link) they are based around the KC area. You can do a google search and find the league website. They have lots of good stock dog people associated with the club. I'm also pretty sure they'll have information about a clinic this weekend in Butler MO with Jack Knox. If not or you don't find the website, I can give you contact info if you are interested in going to watch and meet people as I think the working spots are filled.

 

Good luck in your new quest. You will be constantly amazed at what these dogs can do and what we have to learn.

 

Kristen

There seems to be a lot of good BC people within 100 miles. I am very pleased at this stage with the gentleman I am working with. I asked him last night if it would be possible to see one of his dogs work. He brought out a male that worked wonderfully on some cattle. I tried the number to the Butler, Mo. clinic but didn't get a return call. My wife and I talked about going but didn't know if we could take Koda. Can a person take a dog to watch, we don't have a kennel yet so she pretty much goes where I go, she sleeps in a crate but otherwise is with me. My quest is met, a new friend. They are smart, I keep forgetting to turn off lights, taught her to turn the kitchen light off. Was making coffee early one morning and hadn't turned on the lights. The lights come on and I turn around and she is sitting there looking at me. Please let me know if a couple can take their dog to a show. It would be a good socializing session for her.

[bcnewe2]

Yes you can take your dog. It would be discouraged if your dog was out of control. Koda sounds like she has been around livestock before so would probably be fine. The main thing that would be different would be the excitement of her seeing other dogs work. My young pup can get a bit over the top with watching others work. It's ok if I'm around to keep her in check but if I'm out working another dog, I'd probably leave her at the car or on a fence where she couldn't see and hopefully not hear me (dream on) work. None of my dogs are thrilled when I'm out working anyone but them.

 

You can try the # again and leave a message if you'd like to observe the clinic this weekend. Larry works long hours and usually calls me back late in the evening. There might me a nominal charge for watching, I'm not sure.

 

You can also bring your dog to a trial if as I stated before if she's not a screaming mess when she sees other dog's being worked. Her previous expereince makes me think she'd be fine. There are those out of control dogs that are brought to trials but no one is enjoying them, they are usually just to polite to say so.

 

I need to teach mine to cook dinner, then I'd have it made!

 

Good luck and maybe we'll meet this weekend in Butler. It should be a great weekend and Jack is one of the best. I'm really looking forward to it.

 

Kristen

btw, I don't socialize my dogs at clinics or trials. It could be good for people socializing but when working, or even thinking about working my dogs would rather not be bothered by dogs outside their own pack (heck, inside their own pack either). It's all about the sheep to them. I don't know if it's the same for others but that's out way.