Teaching an "out"/giving distance off of stock

[Guest kimkathan]

I have a 2 yr. old female BC bred for all stock ( a bitch from Possum Hollow Farms in NC, very different working style than alot of Northeast dogs). She is working well on sheep/goats/ and cattle. At this age she is still fast, but takes a correction well, and quite often it takes only a grumble or just her name. I'm quite happy with her at this point. Our true trouble spot at this point is that I don't think she truly knows what "out" means. While doing balance work (either in front of me or pulling her in front of me between stock), if she comes in too close and I say out, after the 2nd or 3rd revolution she will gradually pull herself out. Also if she's doing an outrun and starts to cut in too straight (always on the away side) she doesn't pull out any. At this point, I'm not looking for major distance on an out, but would like to see her pop out even and just give a little ground. The same applies to ally work with cattle, When she's driving cattle up an ally and is getting too close and I say out she'll just stand there, not turn around and give any. I think that through all this she realizes that I'm asking something, but is unsure of what. She's the kind of dog that wants things fast and up close to keep things moving. We're working on pace and it's coming but she gets "pouty" when things are moving slowly, but she'll keep working, just stops alot and eats manure (it's not stress) She will drive with assistance ( me walking slightly behind and to one side) Do you have any advice on how to get her to understand that "out" means to give more distance off of stock either moving (as in an outrun) or in a corner/pen/ally (just to turn around and back off)

Thanks for all the help you're offering all of us

[Guest Penny Tose]

I guess you knew I would say this but any manure eating while actually

working (not on the way there or afterward) sounds like stress and avoidance

unless the

manure is particularly attractive say from lambs or calves still getting

colostrum or maybe some irresistible afterbirth coated with feces. Some

people ignore manure snacking. I correct a young dog if we're working for this, and I don't have any who snack on the job.

 

You're in luck on one point: getting a dog out is easier than getting one in. It

doesn't

seem that way at first. I wanted naturally wider dogs. I got them. I

learned that pushing a dog out is more likely to be successful than pulling

one in. Be grateful for this problem.

This is a great problem. You can fix this problem and only have to go back

and reinforce it every now and then.

 

Outrun: If the dog knows what you want on the outrun, you can call her back,

not let her have the stock, and send her again. I can't commit to

recommending this because I have not seen your dog, and by your description

she is temperamental so you have to decide if calling her back will turn her

off or make her hesitant to leave your feet. This is an important decision. I urge you to talk to the breeder and to get a lesson or two before making up your mind.

 

I think I might first try putting the dog on a down at however far I wanted to

send her from, then get half way up the field (or farther, even all the way

to the sheep if that is where the slicing starts) and send the dog so that I

could control the shape of the outrun or flank.

 

You shouldn't need to tell the dog "out" on the outrun. You don't want the words "out" and "keep" to be a correction. They're just commands. What I mean is, it sounds to me as if you need to work on the way side flanks and outruns so that they aren't too tight or don't include a slice. You don't have to use "out" for that. You can pressure the dog to go wider while grumbling "what are you doing?" or something similar.

 

Another school of thought teaches the dog to widen after every down on an outrun. In other words, a down command then a flank in the middle of an outrun mean "cast out wider." From what you have described, you're nowhere near getting that. My sense of what you're doing with your dog at this point is that you should try to shape the flanks and small outruns until they are desirable.

 

Out: You can teach your dog what the word "out" means by standing with the

sheep, flanking her around, and pushing her out as you say the word. You can

use "keep" for the way side and "out" for the bye side. You can,

theoretically anyway (some people manage this without a hitch), then put the

sheep in a corner and with the dog not too close and bend the dog out.

 

There is something that I don't understand at all in your post, Kim. You said: "While

doing balance work (either in front of me or pulling her in front of me

between stock), if she comes in too close and I say out, after the 2nd or

3rd revolution she will gradually pull herself out."

 

If you are doing balance work, why is the dog revolving around stock? I am not understanding what you are trying to describe.

 

Cattle: I can't help you with the cattle issue because I know nothing about working them other than watch out for mama cows. Another reason I think you should get a lesson or two regardless of how good a stockman you are is that your dog may be right about not giving ground to the cattle when you ask in the alley or she may not be right. If she is right and you just want to make her listen, I think that might be a mistake because you would be making her show weakness. Otoh, the cattle need to know that the dog will release pressure when they cooperate.

 

Penny

 

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Penny ]</small>

[Guest kimkathan]

As far as your question goes...I probably shouldn't have called it balance work. Basically what I'm doing is getting her to compleatly circle the stock off balance and teaching her to be comfortable with both pulling behing me ( in closer situations) and coming in between me and the stock(more for distance times) I don't know what it is that you call it.

 

Now when you say that you repremand your dogs for eating manure, how do you go about that. I've tried grumbling at her, I've tried the "Get out of that and What are you doing" I've even gone as far taking her in on lead and tugging her off with a strong "NO". She doesn't do it when she's on the move, but only when she's stopped (Lying down before a flank, giving a stand when wearing, holding sheep in a corner ect.) While she's on the move she dosen't look for it at all and really seems unaware of it til stopped and it's right in front of her. I guess what I'm asking is, how hard to get on her for this and how to go about it so that she's still happy about being on the field and not so stressed afterware about worrying that she's going to get in trouble.

 

Thanks for all the help with the out. I'm going to try working on that this week

[Guest Penny Tose]

I wish that I had a good answer to that but there is no way to have one on the internet because you have to read your dog's limits and nature.

 

Penny