What words to avoid when obedience training a future stockdog?

[painted_ponies]

I know I should use "here," not "come," but what about "down"?

 

I've enrolled my puppy, Faith, in an obedience class, but I hope one day to start her on sheep. At the one trial I've attended so far, I noticed "lie down" seemed to mean something more like "stop" than "assume a prone position." To avoid future confusion, should I think of something else to say when I want her to place her ventral surface on the floor and be still?

 

Any other obedience words I should avoid?

Thanks.

[PSmitty]

I don't think it matters, as long as you use two different words. For example, you could use "drop" to mean lie down in class, and reserve "lie down" for stock work. Or vice versa. But I'm sure the experts might have better advice.

 

I mostly posted to ask for pictures of that new pup! Huh, how about it?

[painted_ponies]

Thanks for the response. I wasn't sure about "lie down," since I have actually seen trial dogs lie down in response. But then again, some people say their dog loses momentum if they actually lie down and so they train a standing stop in response to "lie down." Then still other people tell me they use the word "stop". Very confusing, at least to my little brain.

 

Sorry to say no new pics of Faith since the first ones. I've taken some, but I'm waiting to take up the roll so I can get them developed. I wish I had a digital camera!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

How about that'll do for come? That what most of us do. "Here" often means closer to the stock, not me, though that's something that is not set in stone.

 

The danger with teaching lie down in an obedience setting seems primarily to be that dogs tend to learn first that it means where they are ie, next to you, and then that it means what they are doing, ie, putting belly on ground.

 

You can just use down, as many people do in obedience. This transfers nicely as most stockdogs key off the first sound they hear when they are working (the first concept of lie down is "check up"), with the second sound being a reinforcer, a modifier, or a positional command. So "lie down" would mean "Check up-get down".

 

When you transfer this to whistles, you can use a two toned whistle for a down whistle and then the first part can be used as a check or steady.

 

Other cautions for obedience. Try to avoid the formal stuff where your pup is wrapped around your knees and gazing adoringly into your eyes. Some attention exercises are fine but if you get into advanced classes where you teach "attention at heel", this is where dogs seem to learn to look to you first when they get in trouble instead of using their brains. This is not just my own observation but the opinion of trainers who see hundreds of dogs every year at clinics.

[PSmitty]

Other cautions for obedience. Try to avoid the formal stuff where your pup is wrapped around your knees and gazing adoringly into your eyes. Some attention exercises are fine but if you get into advanced classes where you teach "attention at heel", this is where dogs seem to learn to look to you first when they get in trouble instead of using their brains.

Ah, that's interesting! I wouldn't have thought of that (obviously I don't do stock work). Good stuff, Becca.

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Irena Farm:

You can just use down, as many people do in obedience. This transfers nicely as most stockdogs key off the first sound they hear when they are working (the first concept of lie down is "check up"), with the second sound being a reinforcer, a modifier, or a positional command. So "lie down" would mean "Check up-get down".

 

When you transfer this to whistles, you can use a two toned whistle for a down whistle and then the first part can be used as a check or steady.

Thanks, Becca! That explains why the command often sounds like "LIE down" (with the accent on the first word). I had no idea.

 

Also thanks for the "that'll do" idea. When I first read that I was like :confused: "but that means .. . *light dawneth* oh yeah, time to stop working. So coming to the handler would be the appropriate response. :cool:

 

I am going to have to be very careful about encouraging the rapt gaze. That used to be something, in my misspent (ACK) youth, that I'd begin encouraging on day one. But I'd read on littlehats, and it makes sense, that the "look deeply into my eyes" thing isn't what you want your stockdog doing.

[juliepoudrier]

I guess I play fast and loose with the commands my dogs know. They seem to understand context, so when I'm in the house and say "come here" they know it means to come to me, but when we're working and I say "come bye here" or "come here," they tighten the flank (or in Kat's world, come through on the shed). I try to have two separate commands for stop/stand (stand) and lie down (which to me means lie down, not stop or stand). I actually use "that'll do, here" to mean stop what you're doing and come to me. "That'll do" by itself means stop what you're doing, but I don't necessarily mean for the dog to come to me when I say it (though they will). So if for example, Phoebe is digging to China while we're out on a walk, I may ask her to stop by saying "that'll do." She doesn't have to come to me--she can continue to run ahead with the pack, but she better stop digging the d**n hole!

 

Anyway, my advice would be not to overthink it. I did teach the pups a down as "lie down" but don't expect their ability to lie down on the kitchen floor on command to translate to lying down when they're working stock (at this age).

 

If a command makes sense to you, use it. If it turns out to be a working command and you've used it for something else, you can either expect your dog to learn the context or just come up with another command for the work. So what if you're using "Go bye" or "run bye" or "get out" or whatever to mean go clockwise. The dog won't care what you say as long as it knows what the command means.

 

Oh and I think some of the reason for the emphasis on the lie is that "lie" is easier to say emphatically than "down" is, but that's just in *my* world! I actually don't use a two-tone whistle for a lie down. I have one long tone. If I give a much shortened, sharper version of that long tone, it means steady up and quit pushing so hard (i.e., my steady whistle). So it's the first part of my lie down whistle, but sharper.

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Thanks julie. That's sort of what I've been doing - "that'll do" means "what you were doing was good at the time but stop it now and do this next thing." If the "next thing" I want is for them to haul their fuzzy butts over to me, then I say "that'll do, here."

 

I suppose I'll carry on using those words and hope like yours they'll figure out context as they learn more.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I use "wait" a lot with my dogs as a momentary pause or hold up type of command. At my lesson on Thursday, I was telling Dare to "wait" before sending her, as the sheep weren't set. I don't know how my instructor heard that as he was over 100 yards away and I wasn't yelling, but he did! He suggested I NOT use "wait," or at least not use it in relation to stock work, since it is just a smidgen away from being "way to me," and showed me how his dog reacted to hearing "wait." I think that it's probably okay as Julie described, in alternate context (to use wait when away from stock).

 

I wouldn't worry too much about whether to use "come" or "here" to recall your dog, as both have alternate usage in stock work. I know several people who have come over from obedience, who use "go bye" instead of come bye because they use come as their recall word.

[iLLt3cK]

Just make sure that you aren't training the dog any command (on purpose or not) that you also use in casual conversation.

 

For example, I use "c'mon" with Tate when walking casually everyday and sometimes when I'm sorting sheep I get frustrated when they don't want to move and tell them "c'mon sheep!" so of course this further troubles things when Tate walks up being very good and he inadvertently pins the sheep against the fence!

 

Also, be prepared to throw all of your training out the window because if your dog takes an interest in sheep no matter how obedient they are while in the home or on their walks most of it goes right out the window when they start to work. Plus there are a lot of commands you can only use when working sheep like "go by" and "away to me", "walk up", "take time" etc.

[Bill Fosher]

That'll do is just a recall for me. I've seen lots of people who use it as both a recall and an admonishment, which I think is a little confusing to the dogs to say the least. When does it mean go to the boss and when does it mean knock it off?

 

All that said, it's very easy for dogs to re-learn commands in the context of stock work once they have decided that they will listen to you at all. I trained Molly with come as a recall, and decided that I didn't like go bye as a left hand flank and just switched her to come bye in an afternoon.

 

(Go bye is harder to modulate than come bye.)

[painted_ponies]

Megan - thanks for the tip re "wait" - I wouldn't have thought of that.

 

iLL3tcK - Good point. That's one reason I've always used "anngh" instead of "no." It's amazing how many times in one day you say either "no" or "know" in casual conversation.

 

Bill - OK, I think I'm persuaded to use "that'll do" as a recall. I was reading Derek Scrimgeour's book the other night, and his "that'll do" is a recall with what in obedicence we used to call a "finish" i.e. circle around behind the handler and sit facing forwards. Seems like the simplest way to avoid confusion later on. I'm not so much worried about the dogs as myself.

[Pearse]

For words to avoid when training stockdogs, refer to George Carlin's "Seven Words You Cannot Say On Television".

 

If you can avoid all of them, send me your name and I'll forward it to the Vatican.

 

Cheers,

 

Pearse

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by Pearse:

For words to avoid when training stockdogs, refer to George Carlin's "Seven Words You Cannot Say On Television".

 

If you can avoid all of them, send me your name and I'll forward it to the Vatican.

 

Cheers,

 

Pearse

LOL. Train stockdogs without using one of those words? I can't even *live* with stockdogs without using several!