How to cure a Clappy dog?

[lookback]

Did I see a post about how to train a dog out of clapping down all the time?

I think it was in the Expert Section and (as a noob) I understand we don't reply to those posts, so here's my contribution:

 

The dog will normally bring the sheep to you and lie down - and from this position, you can't move it - right?

Frustrating, but don't get cross, the dog's doing exactly what it's supposed to.

 

From this position, two things will cause the dog to move:

• A sheep breaks away from the bunch.
  
• You move away from the dog and the sheep.
  

It really is that simple (in my experience). The dog has brought the sheep to you and lies down to hold them there, but if you move away, the dog can't just stay where it is or the sheep will go home. So it MUST get up and bring them to you again.

 

Once the dog's getting close again, you just keep walking - weave your way around in this direction and that, and gently give the dog the appropriate command for whichever way it's moving around the sheep (or whatever).

 

Keep this up for quite a few sessions, and the dog will free-up - TRY IT!

 

Edit by Moderator: Commercial link removed.

[Wendy V]

I've viewed the trailer. Hilarious! It was if you were secretly filming my training wrecks. Kudos to you for putting it all out there for all to see.

[Pearse]

How to cure a clappy dog?

 

I hear penicillin works, along with a good talking to about the value of protection.

[lookback]

How to cure a clappy dog?

 

I hear penicillin works, along with a good talking to about the value of protection.

Nice one Pearse!

[juliepoudrier]

It really is that simple (in my experience). The dog has brought the sheep to you and lies down to hold them there, but if you move away, the dog can't just stay where it is or the sheep will go home. So it MUST get up and bring them to you again.

 

Not to sound snippy or anything, but the thread about managing a clappy dog was mine, and I *don't think it's as simple as you've stated above. The dog in question is way beyond just bringing sheep to my feet and then clapping. I was talking about a dog doing open-level work (that is, she gathers, drives, sheds) who is clappy. I don't need to do balance work with her to teach her flank commands and keep her moving--I need tips for managing her desire to clap out in the field, no matter where the sheep are relative to me (e.g., this could be on a crossdrive with me standing at the post where my movement with respect to the sheep is completely irrelevant). In fact, it's usually when sheep are very light or there's a very strong draw and she's clapping on pressure to prevent escape. It's not about getting her up and getting her to bring the sheep to me. Thanks anyway though.

 

J.

[Nancy Bovee]

Hi Julie - here is yet another novice with advice. (well, it's not really my advice) I have a clappy dog who really wants to head sheep and books out to pressure. I went to a Bobby Dalziel clinic last week and he was quite simple in his approach: he put a line on the dog and in the same way he would ask and then tug to get a down, he asked and then tugged to get a "walk up". He said the dog was defying me (which was true). He told me my repeated requests were "nagging" and would soon be ignored.

 

I've been thinking about it and clapping, downing and freezing at pressure is just as reasonable an idea for the dog as any other of the instinctual behaviors we use. But the reason we are out there is to put in our two cents about what needs to happen. (I have trouble being an authority out there). Putting a line on the dog and having someone else (him) manage it really helped making a correction easy and clear. I have another dog who doesn't want to lie down and I'm always told "make him." Well, it's the same advice. I don't know about others, but once my dog got corrected for not walking up when first asked a couple times, he started changing his mind about "needing" to be there.

 

Also, I'm hoping that once I've put this into training a little more, when I'm at a distance I can use a simple "ehhh" or whatever instead of the constant begging I've been resorting to.

 

I've noticed my trainer tends to treat this a bit differently than other stubborn behaviors - saying it's the breeding, etc. (which it probably is) but I was happy to have one take it on with some practical methods.

 

The other thing I've used on my non-clappy dog (who occaisionally gets stuck in a down after almost never taking them!) is a "Stand" which he will take from a down. That movement to feet shifts the sheep just enough to start things up again.

 

Nancy B

Not to sound snippy or anything, but the thread about managing a clappy dog was mine, and I *don't think it's as simple as you've stated above. The dog in question is way beyond just bringing sheep to my feet and then clapping. I was talking about a dog doing open-level work (that is, she gathers, drives, sheds) who is clappy. I don't need to do balance work with her to teach her flank commands and keep her moving--I need tips for managing her desire to clap out in the field, no matter where the sheep are relative to me (e.g., this could be on a crossdrive with me standing at the post where my movement with respect to the sheep is completely irrelevant). In fact, it's usually when sheep are very light or there's a very strong draw and she's clapping on pressure to prevent escape. It's not about getting her up and getting her to bring the sheep to me. Thanks anyway though.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Also, I'm hoping that once I've put this into training a little more, when I'm at a distance I can use a simple "ehhh" or whatever instead of the constant begging I've been resorting to.

 

 

Nancy, I've found with myself that begging had turned into a habit, when I made a concience effort to try to not ask twice or be aware of how much I was recommanding and got going on my corrections making sure that they were effective things started coming together. When I get back into the habit of mutiple asks my dog starts getting sticky again, when he get's sticky the sooner I get him in the right mindset of wanting to be where I send him the better, which comes back full circle to me not begging in order to acheive that mindset.

 

I also have been told that clappy and sticky is defiance or a disobedience, either the dog refused to stop and ended up there or the dog refused to leave and stuck there. Being told that doesn't make it any easier to get through it though , I've come to the conclusion that maintenance is the key.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Nancy,

You make some good points. I don't see Lark as being defiant--she really is trying to do what she thinks I want, which is to not let the sheep escape. Although she has a tendency to be clappy all the time (clappy in the sense of automatically lying herself down), it becomes a problem only when there is a really strong draw. Even then she'll get up and walk straight in or flank freely when asked, but as soon as the sheep bend toward the pressure, she cuts them off and claps. BUT, even then I can still get her up with just one command, so it's not as if I have to nag with a bunch of "walk ups" or anything. But when she's on the pressure, she lies down. Rather than pace herself, she lies down (she practices her own version of drop and drift). So while I'm not begging her along, we're not flowing as nicely as we should either (and I should note that she *never* claps at the lift and in fact will do a very nice silent gather, so she's a bit of a paradox). It's hard to explain, and I guess I'll have to take some video of her working so folks can see what I mean.

 

At any rate, I'm trying some of the exercises from the other thread (nothing real successful yet), so maybe we'll have a breakthrough sooner or later.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Julie, when there is a strong draw can you stop her from flanking into and getting to the place where she claps down? I don't know if I have had the same thing going on, but in the case with Jake until I could stop him from going to that spot I could not help him feel the weight of the sheep and control their speed from the side, he too could be flanked out of his clapped down spot and walk him up, though he did it with little resolve, but when things got tense he would run to that pressure point,slide in like a base runner sliding into home and lock up ready to do a shimmy from side to side on his belly to maintain that pressure point, he runs hard so, it's sometimes difficult to catch up with him. Right now I'm watching him closely to see any place that he wants to do that, any time I see him going into that run and stop the sheep mode I make sure that I can stop him, if I can't stop him I go right to where he is going and break him out of it not letting him think that it is ok to be there all the time. The more vigilant I am the more he is controlling the sheep from the back and side, even to the point of accellerating them from the back on Saturday, he never gets in and pressures the heels, he would rather try to move them from the head, kinda trying to break them free and then try to get around and steer them. For the first time while driving he pushed the stock from the rear vs. waiting for it to move at it's own pace and then trying to shut it down when he got nervous about the speed or direction.

 

Jake is worse when he thinks stock is going to escape, and the lighter the sheep the worse he is. I used him to take sheep down the road a couple of months back to their home lot, this was at another trainers place. It was a stop go production, I would get him to flank out of the pressure to allow the sheep to go and Jake would frantically run back into the pressure to stop them refusing to hear me. After two attempts to get him stopped and to rate the sheep I just went and leashed him up rather then continue to fail, it was a no win situation that I needed to work on at home. He does the same thing on cattle, just gets them going and then starts to slide around to stop them, it really torques cattle off and puts them on the fight.

 

I set the same situation up here at home after doing some of Carol's suggested exercises. When the sheep started to accelerate rather then rating he went into his run to stop mode, but I had old Vicki with, she actuallt was rating and controlling the sheep so that when Jake went to blow out I could concentrate on dealing with him and not worry about the sheep escaping on him which would normally compound the problem, eventually he just gave up and joined Vicki back where he should have been. It was after that session that we had the break through with him actually accelerating the stock from the rear instead of his normal deal.

 

Deb

[Nancy Bovee]

You don't have to send a video for me! It sounds EXACTLY like my dog. At a trial this weekend the lift and fetch was very nice - it was only when we got back to that same (exhaust and entry) pressure point that I couldn't get another fetch down the arena (I should have gone close and helped, but I'm an idiot).

 

Nancy

 

p.s. the word "defiant" sounds a little too hard, but what he meant was that the dog was sure he was correct and you must just not have seen what he did . ;-) a gentle kind of defiance.... That's what I meant in that our commands are always at least somewhat contrary to what their instincts are telling them to do. We need them to trust us.

 

Nancy,

You make some good points. I don't see Lark as being defiant--she really is trying to do what she thinks I want, which is to not let the sheep escape. Although she has a tendency to be clappy all the time (clappy in the sense of automatically lying herself down), it becomes a problem only when there is a really strong draw. Even then she'll get up and walk straight in or flank freely when asked, but as soon as the sheep bend toward the pressure, she cuts them off and claps. BUT, even then I can still get her up with just one command, so it's not as if I have to nag with a bunch of "walk ups" or anything. But when she's on the pressure, she lies down. Rather than pace herself, she lies down (she practices her own version of drop and drift). So while I'm not begging her along, we're not flowing as nicely as we should either (and I should note that she *never* claps at the lift and in fact will do a very nice silent gather, so she's a bit of a paradox). It's hard to explain, and I guess I'll have to take some video of her working so folks can see what I mean.

 

At any rate, I'm trying some of the exercises from the other thread (nothing real successful yet), so maybe we'll have a breakthrough sooner or later.

 

J.

[Nancy Bovee]

Julie" But when she's on the pressure, she lies down. Rather than pace herself, she lies down (she practices her own version of drop and drift). So while I'm not begging her along, we're not flowing as nicely as we should either "

 

What was nice about the work at the clinic was the reaction from my dog, which went from worried (well, those sheep might ESCAPE) to "oh, this is working nicely" and his relaxation when he was just reminded to keep walking by the line.

 

I don't blame my dog. I had the gift of a pup who would readily balance and down, and had the misfortune of working him in the only place I had to work - which was a big field with really light antelope sheep who were bent on booking back to the pens. Instead of working close to those pens, I took the sheep far out thinking they would forget the draw. Duh... So I set that idea into him big time. Now I have to carefully untrain it....

 

Nancy