Training down and recall off stock

[painted_ponies]

For the past two Saturdays, Vi and Faith and I have been going to work sheep with a very nice fellow who's kind enough to mentor the three of us. The fact that I've neglected dog-training in favor of barn-building this year soon became woefully apparent. So every morning this week I've put a long-line on the girls and worked on recall and down for about ten minutes.

 

Vi, who was about 50% reliable with these commands on stock has improved this week to about 95% off stock. Faith was 0% on-stock but has improved off stock from about 30% reliability to 60%. It's how they're executing the commands that has me worried.

 

Violet, who's four and a half, creeps towards me like her feet hurt on the recall, and turns a wounded look on me as she sinks sllooowly into a down. This morning, she executed both commands the first time I gave them, then gave me the sort of strained smile one turns on the bore at a cocktail party and slunk off to wait by the front door to the house.

 

Faith, my eleven month old, was completely blowing off both commands. Recall went something like "Faith, here!" Not even a glance in my direction. "Faith here!" Tug on line, pup looks in my direction and goes back to what she was doing. "Faith, here!" Reel pup in hand over hand, praise when she gets to me. So I got the bright idea to start moving backwards away from her as I gave the recall command. This results in her bounding towards me, launching herself through the air when she's about five feet away, and grabbing either my shirt or my wrist in her teeth as she collides with me. Or she'll charge at me, do a sort of drive-by, run ten feet past me and wheel back around to crash into my knees. "Lie down" results in a stop about half the time but I have to go to her and put my foot on the line before she'll actually lie down.

 

I am praising when they comply with my commands, since they did do as I asked even though they didn't do it in the manner I expected. Could I be re-inforcing their weirdness by responding positively? If so, how to correct their technique without confusing them as to the expected action? Or should I just be happy they're doing as I ask and stop being such a control freak?

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Sally,

I'm certainly not an expert and I've been guilty of asking more than once for a particular behavior (hi Robin!), but when you call Faith to you, ask once and if she doesn't respond, reel her in (as it is now you are teaching her that she doesn't need to come to you until the third time you ask). I would correct her for the launching at you/grabbing as well. Obviously you don't want her to think you're correcting for coming when called, and it may not even be an issue of you're reeling her in instead of running backward away from her. So say, "Faith, here" and if she doesn't respond immediately, reel her in. No need to repeat the command. It will take perserverance, but she'll get it. If she does start responding with consistency and then you are still having problems with jumping and "fly bys" I'd start using a verbal correction to stop that (for example, as soon as you see her getting ready to launch, give her a sharp Aahht! and step out of her way so she's not rewarded by actually making contact with you). Eventually you can ask for the lie down to stop that behavior, but she needs to be solid on it before you do or you'll just be reinforcing that lie down is optional. You can use the same technique for Violet. Personally I would ignore her theatrics and continue to ask what I wanted in a matter-of-fact way, and praise her when she does as asked. That doesn't mean you have to do a happy dance or anything when she replies with a request--a simple "good girl" will do, and then immediately go to the next command/task so she doesn't have time to think about other responses.

 

For the lie down, I would not ask for it unless I were in a position to reinforce it. So never ask Faith unless you are standing right there so you can step on the lead and make it happen. Otherwise, you're teaching her that the command is optional.

 

It will be a little more difficult to retrain these things because the dogs have learned they don't have to comply, but if you are consistent, they'll get it.

 

I hope that helps, and perhaps someone who's better at it than I will also chime in.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

(Hi back Julie )

 

I'll just start on the recall - you need to switch methods on the dogs. The sulky one first - ask her to come, praise the second she starts to come, and then turn around and start walking off and asked her to catch up to you. Don't stand there looking at her (which feels like pressure to her), asking and begging her to speed up, chirping happily, and basically praising her with your voice for sulking up to you. Does that make sense?

 

The jumper - call her, praise her decision to come to you as soon as she makes it, *turn around* and start to walk away and let her catch up wih you. Don't back away, just turn around and go.

[painted_ponies]

Thanks, Julie.

 

I guess the "ask once then enforce" rule applies when training on stock as well? I ask because I've read and watched videos where the handler used tone of voice and repeated commands in a sort of "warmer, colder" technique, i.e. harsh voice command to tell the dog he's not doing right and softer more pleasant voice repeating the command as he begins to comply. But given my lack of success using this technique off stock I suppose I'm not applying it correctly.

[painted_ponies]

(Hi back Julie )

 

I'll just start on the recall - you need to switch methods on the dogs. The sulky one first - ask her to come, praise the second she starts to come, and then turn around and start walking off and asked her to catch up to you. Don't stand there looking at her (which feels like pressure to her), asking and begging her to speed up, chirping happily, and basically praising her with your voice for sulking up to you. Does that make sense?

 

The jumper - call her, praise her decision to come to you as soon as she makes it, *turn around* and start to walk away and let her catch up wih you. Don't back away, just turn around and go.

 

Eureka! *lightbulbs begin going off* I cross-posted with you before, Robin. But you know, I bet this will work really well. I wish I lived close enough to go home and try it at lunch! Thanks!

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks, Julie.

 

I guess the "ask once then enforce" rule applies when training on stock as well? I ask because I've read and watched videos where the handler used tone of voice and repeated commands in a sort of "warmer, colder" technique, i.e. harsh voice command to tell the dog he's not doing right and softer more pleasant voice repeating the command as he begins to comply. But given my lack of success using this technique off stock I suppose I'm not applying it correctly.

Sally,

If I understand the video to which you're referring, he's still only asking once and expecting instant compliance. That initial command is followed by the soft repeats in a "praise" voice, but as the dog has already complied to the first asking, the continued "commands" are actually perceived by the dog as praise for having done the right thing. So he's not saying "LIE DOWN, lie down, lie down, lie down" all the while waiting for the dog to actually lie down. The dog would have hit the deck on the first command, and all subsequent commands are actually just reinforcing praise to tell the dog it's doing the right thing. That's the way I understand his technique anyway. Does that make sense?

 

I think like any training method, the technique you use must depend in large part on the dog. For example, with Pip I had been trying to do the "ask for the lie down while releasing pressure" technique on stock. It worked sometimes, but just as often Pip would keep walking into the sheep. Robin kindly pointed out to me that I was asking Pip to lie down at least twice and never really enforcing it, and so of course I wasn't getting compliance. When I got my act together and asked once and then put pressure on him to comply and then when he complied immediately released the pressure (by backing away and asking him to flank around), he started lying down consistently when asked. Phoebe takes a slightly different approach to achieve the same outcome.

 

BTW, I've seen Robin demonstrate her technique for getting a dog to stop pulling while walking on a leash and it works like a charm, so I expect her methods for teaching a recall are just as good.

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

So he's not saying "LIE DOWN, lie down, lie down, lie down" all the while waiting for the dog to actually lie down. The dog would have hit the deck on the first command, and all subsequent commands are actually just reinforcing praise to tell the dog it's doing the right thing.

 

Aha! Yes, that makes a great deal of sense. Thanks!

 

with Pip I had been trying to do the "ask for the lie down while releasing pressure" technique on stock. It worked sometimes, but just as often Pip would keep walking into the sheep. Robin kindly pointed out to me that I was asking Pip to lie down at least twice and never really enforcing it, and so of course I wasn't getting compliance. When I got my act together and asked once and then put pressure on him to comply and then when he complied immediately released the pressure (by backing away and asking him to flank around)

 

Y'know, I think that was how Bob got Faith to actually lie down in the presence of sheep last week - at the sight of which I nearly fell over in shock. He got between her the sheep, holding a ten foot PVC pole so she couldn't dart around him, and wouldn't get out of her way till she lay down. And it worked!

 

BTW, I've seen Robin demonstrate her technique for getting a dog to stop pulling while walking on a leash and it works like a charm,

Then Robin and I need to talk before one of my arms is longer than the other. When she gives another clinic, I'm there - I would've come to the last one but Kurt and I were on vacation when it was held.

[Shoofly]

BTW, I've seen Robin demonstrate her technique for getting a dog to stop pulling while walking on a leash and it works like a charm, so I expect her methods for teaching a recall are just as good.

J.

 

That stuff i put above is pretty good for teaching the recall, but getting it really solid if they've learned to ignore the command is a little more complicated (but much like the down training Julie described in theory, pressure on, pressure off). I don't think i could do it justice trying to type it out. Let me know how it goes when you get home!

[painted_ponies]

That stuff i put above is pretty good for teaching the recall, but getting it really solid if they've learned to ignore the command is a little more complicated (but much like the down training Julie described in theory, pressure on, pressure off). I don't think i could do it justice trying to type it out. Let me know how it goes when you get home!

 

Sorry to be so long replying, but I didn't get a chance to try the new recall method until last night. It's working like a charm to cure Violet of her creepiness on the recall. I've started stepping backwards a few steps as soon as she responds to a request for down as well, and she seems much happier about things. I guess she was feeling a little bit pressured by my hovering, bless her heart.

 

Faith's recall started out being much better with the new method, although now she's started doing fly-by's instead of coming to me. I'm trying to correct this by saying "anngh" as she whooshes past and tugging her back to where I want her. But if you or anybody else has a better idea, I'm all ears.

 

Thanks very much for the advice, Robin.