BC's & children

[Guest pax]

I think the trick is to crate train the kids, too.

 

[HighDesertSpice]

I don't sell dogs , but I do work in rescue. I'm not saying I have a blanket rule against homes with children, but the children need to be older and the home has to be evaluated very carefully. Too many dogs wind up in rescue because of problems with the children. In fact, that's one of the top three reasons we hear.

 

Honestly, I don't think BCs are, in general, a breed for small children. They tend to be quick to react to things like, for example, children dropping out of the sky on them while they're sleeping. The drive-y ones chase and nip running children.

Yes, a knowledgeable home can address these problems, but IME most homes will not, and the dog winds up homeless.

 

As for breeding for temperament with children, I'll leave that one to people who actually breed BC.

 

I appreciate many of the comments on this thread, as a semi new BC owner (well, it's been a few years now) I imposed my lab/golden template on my dog for a while and was wondering why the neighbors were more on alert about my dog than I have been. She *does* chase children and I haven't fully understood why that can be a problem until very recently. So far all is well. I thought her barking at the kids was to get them to run, not to control their movement as I recently learned. Now I am even more informed after reading this entire thread. Thanks everyone for the comments. My bc mix is not a nipper....but/and I don't want to see her barking escalate to anything else. This board is so informative and helpful! (I love my dog and will do better by her now!)

[Bo Peep]

I've in almost 30 years had 7 litters of pups. Hips, eyes----etc...... and my kids as they grew older, didn't quite work for the young ones to be fonded with, so I let the neighbor's grandkids come out and play with the pups, hold them upside down, like kids do- no harm to the pups- they loved the attention- took them for rides in the car- no car sick pups going home, I sold a pup to someone that had bought another and that pup stayed under the house for 3 days, wow- talk about not socializing. Mine however was - in your face happy pup.

I thought I knew everything about BC's and now I have a "problem child" but we'll work it out- I'm sure of it

[Sifreynir]

This 'will not place in house with small/children' really does get on my wires.

 

I can appreciate very much that not every family is like my own. Alot of children will not be taught to respect a dog and cause the poor thing problems. I think it is pure stupidity to tar every family with the same brush and simply dismiss all families without review.

 

Not every family is going to be suitable for every border collie, but then not every BC is suitable for every person (family or not).

 

I have three children ranging from 8mths to 8 years. Now I don't think farmers were celebate do you? But the children on farms would have been taught alot more about animals than your average suburban family and I think that is what needs to be looked at.

How do the children behave when with the dogs. Do they jump and run about like maniacs or do they respect the dogs and their space.

The family I got my puppy from have a working farm. Ash's mum works 1000 sheep in the borders of Scotland and the owners daughters are going to be training Ash's sisters to herd sheep too.

 

I really think each family should be judged individually. Rescue centres bemuse me...they aparently don't want to put their dogs anywhere but on working farms or out in the country and the fact is those homes are limited. I think alot of the time they are cutting off their nose to spite their face but its the dogs who loose out in the long run.

[Shetlander]

I really think each family should be judged individually. Rescue centres bemuse me...they aparently don't want to put their dogs anywhere but on working farms or out in the country and the fact is those homes are limited. I think alot of the time they are cutting off their nose to spite their face but its the dogs who loose out in the long run.

 

One of my friends who helped me "cross over" to Border Collies had a five year old when she got her first BC and she didn't have a fenced in yard AND it was her first dog ever. And yet she took home a 7 week old Border Collie. Crazy! Even crazier, though she had plenty of "buyer's remorse" the first few months with her wild puppy, she turned out to be a fantastic owner who is now very active with her two Border Collies, as is her teenage son. It took her a very long time to get any breeder to even talk her though.

 

Of course, I imagine my friend is much, much more the exception than the rule and that is why breeders and rescues are so leery of homes with small children.

 

A while back on a list, there was a heated debate about crates and there seemed to be a big difference in how Europeans and Americans viewed the use of them. One British person became very adamant that not only were crates bad, but if you couldn't work it out so you didn't need to leave your dog alone 4 hours maximum a day, then you shouldn't have a dog of any age --- period! I was astonished because that sort of belief has really subsided in the states over the past 25 years. The thread turned into an unpleasant conversation because many posters, like me, have worked full time all our adults lives and our dogs have still been able to lead happy, active lives.

 

Maybe the important thing is that the person makes the dog a priority so that kids or no kids, apartment or farm, full time job or home all day, the dog gets the attention, care and exercise he needs. Dogs can be neglected or live like kings in any setting.

 

The tricky part is how do you know before you place a precious BC with that person?

[Sifreynir]

with regards the crates opinion is actually divided in the uk as to how they are viewed. I don't have a problem with a crate or den but my sister who has a GSD and jack russell/patterdale cross...despises them and doesn't think a dog should be confined - the fact that her dogs (in particular the cross) are a pain in the arse and ignore he doesn't seem to bother her much????

 

I think breeders should be as careful as they would expect prospective buyers to be. I researched damned hard before we got Ash (alot of it here lol) balancing up the pros and cons and arguments etc etc etc

A responsible breeder is going to face the same problem and has to make as many checks as possible without being militant and offensive to make sure their dogs are going to good homes.

 

If I were for any reason going to breed bc's at some point that is what I would do. Alot of it is experience too. Experience of people and dog owners aswell as your own dogs.

 

Minefield lol

[Moss]

In my opinion it all very much depends on the individual dog and individual family.

 

My partner has a four year old son who has been brought up around working collies. They are all fantastic with him, and he respects the dogs and knows how to act around dogs. Many farmers have families and the dogs learn to respect the kids and vice versa. I would like to start a family before too long and any children I have will grow up around working collies.

 

Of course there are plenty of families who own border collies who should not own any dog, let alone a dog as intelligent and energetic as a collie.

 

If I were to breed I would be happy selling a puppy to a family home if the parents knew about collies, were experienced with them and who would obviously educate the children as well as the dog.

 

I would be less happy selling a collie into a city apartment life, than to a family life in the countryside.

 

I think each case should be taken on its own merit. I can understand though that with rescue dogs it may be more of a gamble, as they may have had bad experiences with children and be very fearful of them etc. Again, the dog should be assessed thoroughly, and any adopting family even more thoroughly.

 

Perhaps we should have a kids with dogs theme on the gallery! Here are my contributions.

 

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

I think one thing that's being overlooked in the rescue bashing aspects of this thread is that here in North America at least, rescues are generally run by volunteers--people just like you and me, who often also work full time, have their own families and their own personal dogs, all of which make demands on their time, in addition to the rescue work they do. They have to make the best placement they can with little or no help from anyone else and they try to make sure that the new home really *is* a "forever home." This is how blanket rules come into being. If all rescues had scads of time to thoroughly vet every single person, and their extended families, who wants to adopt, they'd have to have more than 24 hours in a day *and* be independently wealthy. As it is, they do the best they can with what they have to work with. Just as insurance companies refuse to insure home owners if they own certain breeds of dog because of breed bite histories (fair or not) or auto insurance companies charge more for high-risk drivers like young men (fair to the responsible young men out there?), so too rescues may be wary of families with small children because of bad experiences with families with small children. They are responding to historical date and the odds those data predict and trying to stack the deck in favor of the new home working out. Of course there are responsible families with dog-savvy children out there, and no, it's not fair that they may be passed over for a rescue because rescuers are leery of families with small children. But given that many border collies are given up by families with children as too much dog, couldn't be controlled around the kids, etc., it's really not surprising that rescues would decide not to adopt to families with children. Rescuers are people too, and I think we can cut them some slack in this regard--especially if we're not walking those many miles in their shoes. Don't you?

 

J.

[Bo Peep]

Raising the pup to love kids was a big factor. Difficult to do when you have Grandkids and they only come over so often. When he gets too hyper my Grandson says "Put him in his box, Grandma". But most of the time, he's snuggly.

[Moss]

They are responding to historical date and the odds those data predict and trying to stack the deck in favor of the new home working out. Of course there are responsible families with dog-savvy children out there, and no, it's not fair that they may be passed over for a rescue because rescuers are leery of families with small children. But given that many border collies are given up by families with children as too much dog, couldn't be controlled around the kids, etc., it's really not surprising that rescues would decide not to adopt to families with children. Rescuers are people too, and I think we can cut them some slack in this regard--especially if we're not walking those many miles in their shoes. Don't you?

 

J.

 

 

I do agree with what you are saying Julie. Most rescuers are volunteers as you have pointed out. I was a volunteer for rescue for five years. I also had a full-time job and a dog of my own to care for. It wasn't easy, and that was just a small, breed-specific rescue. I agree it is very hard to make judgment calls on what kind of a home anyone is going to offer, whether they have kids or not, whether they live in a mansion or a caravan etc etc, so for some of the bigger rescues I guess a blanket ban is put in place in order to hopefully stop dogs from bouncing back to rescue.

 

It isn't an ideal world unfortunately.

 

I was really talking more about puppies than rescue though.

[Sifreynir]

two of the breeders I contacted had detailed questionnaires and asked further questions afterwards.

 

I find it difficult to comprehend that volunteers with so much intelligence and experience between them...not to mention other subsidised charities and border collie support organisations...cannot come up with a questionnaire that will weed out unsuitable adoptive families at the outset.

You can tell by the response people give to a simple question as to what their attitude is...if it stinks you don't put those travelling hours in and refuse them on the face of their application. The dogs trust do this here in the UK.

 

I have noticed there are a few rescue organisations on here from the US...where if not here is the perfect place to discuss with others of wide experience of BC's to forumlate a quick questionnaire?

 

Perhaps its something that should be looked into. When my job lessens a little (i.e the kids) then I would love to help at a bc rescue...there isn't one in Scotland and I been made aware of some pretty grim tales up here in the past week.

[juliepoudrier]

Sifreynir,

I am not a rescuer, so I can't really answer your question, but most rescues I've dealt with (since I own a few rescues) *do* have questionnaires. Unfortunately humans are very good at telling others what they want to hear. Questionnaires alone aren't going to solve the problem. And really, it's not the obvious "nos" that are hard to detect, it's the subtle ones who are tricky. Rescues are full to overflowing here, and it would certainly be nice for them to have the perfect questionnaire that would allow them to pick and choose quickly from the answers alone, but if I didn't have the ideal situation for a rescue dog I bet I could still answer a questionnaire effectively to imply otherwise, and that's where the problem comes in. That's why I noted that most rescue organizations use past experience as a guide, and it's certainly a valid guide to use, which is why I pointed out that insurance companies do the same thing (use historical data as a guide). I have nothing against positive discussion on how to help rescues better vet potential adopters, but what I was reading here was more along the lines of "rescues are absolutely wrong for not adopting to families with children" and not anything constructive on how to help rescues come up with a means to do such an evaluation, and those comments from people who aren't actually involved in rescue. I'm sure the folks who do rescue can adequately defend themselves, but the comments just struck a bit of a nerve and hence my recent replies to this thread.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

Rescue centres bemuse me...they aparently don't want to put their dogs anywhere but on working farms or out in the country and the fact is those homes are limited. I think alot of the time they are cutting off their nose to spite their face but its the dogs who loose out in the long run.

 

Hogwash. Nonsense. Garbage. You don't know what you're speaking of at ALL.

 

Here's the REALITY. Every single week of my life for the last 8 years I get at least one email from someone who wants to surrender their border collie to rescue and they want it to "go live on a farm" or "chase sheep" because they think that's what all border collies were meant to do.

 

Here's what actually happens; we take the dog in, place it with a volunteer foster family (not on a farm), evaluate it, train it, interview prospective new homes and place the dog in an appropriate home - usually a suburban home with an active person. 98% of our rescues or more do not go to farms or working homes out in the country. Most of them have been raised as pets and are suited for pet life (with the right person). Very few of them are suited to working. When we do have a dog that is bred to work and can work and wants to work it's difficult to find a working home for it, because most working folk do not want rescue dogs.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how people who do not do rescue, and don't know anything about doing rescue, feel they are an authority on rescue and preach about the wrongs we do. I have placed somewhere in the vicinity of 450 border collies in new homes. 3 or 4 of them are working for a living. Another dozen are working for fun. The rest are doing agility, flyball, frisbee, goose work or being active companions. You're just spouting off about things you don't know anything about, and that irritates me to no end.

 

Walk a few miles in my shoes with your mouth closed. Then try again.

 

RDM

[Pearse]

Hogwash. Nonsense. Garbage. You don't know what you're speaking of at ALL.

 

Here's the REALITY. Every single week of my life for the last 8 years I get at least one email from someone who wants to surrender their border collie to rescue and they want it to "go live on a farm" or "chase sheep" because they think that's what all border collies were meant to do.

 

 

 

RDM

 

Here here. If you want Border Collies to live on farms and herd sheep for a living then 95% of all the Border Collies born in the country ought not to be born. The market for working Border Collies is very very small, and most people who need working Border Collies can keep themselves in good quality dogs through contacts with other people with working dogs. "Breeders" are not necessary.

 

So don't knock the rescue folks. If you want to stop the problem, get rid of the sport and show breeders and everyone who thinks their dog is worthy of breeding because it has won a couple of agility trials or some novice sheepdog ribbons, or is just the darned cutest dog on the planet.

 

The problem isn't the rescuers. The problem is that like many people who buy pups, many of the people coming to rescue organizations to get a dog have no idea what they are taking on. The rescue workers have invested their time (for free) in evaluating, and often rehabilitating, other people's mistakes. They don't want to have to do it all over again once the next clueless adopter brings the dog back.

 

As for the whole "breeding Border Collies for 'pet' temperament" issue. It's a fraud. It's a cover for breeding worthless dogs. Most well bred working dogs I've personally met have rock solid temperaments, mostly because they've been trained and socialized by people who know what they are doing. The "loony" ones are mostly just poorly trained and poorly socialized. That said, it would take many generations to breed the prey drive out of Border Collies and once that is done, it's not a Border Collie any more. It's some other Black and White dog. If people want a dog for the kids to hang on and cuddle, get a lap dog. That's what they have been bred for. Leave the Border Collies alone.

 

Pearse

[nancy in AZ]

On Saturday I volunteered as a handler at the local rescue's weekend adoption event. Sadly, none of the dogs or puppies we had there got adopted. Not only that, 2 dogs who had been previously adopted from this rescue were re-surrendered. They were both BC crosses--littermates, in fact. The male had been with the family for 6 months. The couple went back and adopted his sister a few weeks ago. I can't help but wonder if they believed that by adding another dog it would absolve them of their responsibility to keep the dogs engaged (I've heard this ridiculous arguement ad nauseum). The husband said the male, who had been with them longest was fitting in great until they brought home his sister, at which point he claims the male had gotten "nippy" with their young children. They weren't interested in trying to work through the situation with traianing, nor would they consider surrendering one and keeping the other. Nothing short of getting rid of both dogs would satisfy them. These dogs had their tails tucked tightly between their legs. They were shaking--scared and confused with only each other to draw any comfort or security from. They panicked anytime they were more than 3 feet distance from one another. I got to be the one to take the dogs back to the kennels at the boarding facility this rescue leases when they have no foster homes available and they're forced to take back an animal. It broke my heart. I only wish this rescue group had policies as strict as RDM's. They are clearly overwhelmed and do the best that they can with the spotty resources they have. The head of their foster program has 10 dogs (I'm unsure how many are her own at this point. I know she is fostering a couple of pups and an adult or two). The woman in charge of the adoption events has 7 dogs, two are fosters. She told me at this point she will only foster dogs that she would have no qualms about taking back herself. In both cases several of their foster dogs became permanent fixtures.

 

When I arrived home from dropping the two dogs off at the kennel, I stood in my backyard trying to figure out how I could add fencing to possibly accomodate another dog or two in an emergency for dogs at risk. As I write this, animal control has two juvenile border collies in their custody. I'm stretched pretty thin so I'm torn between short-changing my own pack and over-extending myself to help out with fosters.

 

I guess that's why I feel despondent when contrary to the fervent chorus of advice from knowledgable, experienced individuals on this forum, there are people wanting a companion BC who ignore *solicited* counsel and seek a breeder.

[Maralynn]

Great post, Pearse.

 

As for the whole "breeding Border Collies for 'pet' temperament" issue. It's a fraud. It's a cover for breeding worthless dogs. Most well bred working dogs I've personally met have rock solid temperaments, mostly because they've been trained and socialized by people who know what they are doing. The "loony" ones are mostly just poorly trained and poorly socialized.

 

My 2 y/o working bred dog is wonderful with children - sweet, gentle, even tempered. But he would not do well in an average pet home because he was bred to do a job. He's got the brains and the drive to be a working dog. Mold and shape the drive and put the brain to good use and you end up with a nice working dog who doubles as a loyal companion to kids and adults. Disreguard the dogs need for training and an outlet for that drive and those brains and you get tons of problems - that you brought upon yourself.

 

The chances are probably 20-1 that a home with kids is going to be a good forever home for a BC. Even if a rescue does miss out on placing a few dogs in suitable forever homes, they save a whole lot more dogs from needing to be rehomed a second or a third time.

[krazy15k]

I agree that I think it depends on the family, but I wouldn't say that bc's are necessarily bad with kids. I know that my bc goes to work with me where kids play with her, and she sees them when we are out and about, where she goes out of her way to get petted. The other day she was the entertainer for a cub scout troop while I tried to get our art supplies together. But I think being a working dog has helped because she knows that children aren't stock to be worked but little people that will throw the ball 400 times without getting tired. It's sad that bc's have gotten this wrap for being spazy dogs that will bite your kids, and corral them around the yard. But maybe she is an exception to the rule, but it seems with a little time, socialization, and education most bc's could be great pets. I don't think that people with kids should automatically be excluded from owning bcs, but then again I couldn't imagine ever letting a child treat a dog the way some moron parents do. So I guess I see both sides. People in rescue have seen those moron parents I speak of so naturally they are weary. Sorry to get so far off subject! It just amazes me that "pet" bred breeders (that phrase seems so wrong) would breed dogs that are bad pets, that defeats a pet, and they talk smack about working bred dogs? Okay, that was my ramble on the subject.