BC's & children

[zenotri]

I was reading on an Australian list about a breeder who will not place her dogs into homes with children and suspect this is a pretty common attitude amongst show & pet breeders.

 

It really bothers me...these people are not breeding for work, they are breeding for pets. If you were breeding any breed for a pet home, wouldn't your first consideration be temperament? Isn't that all you have to get right? and wouldn't a good temperament be able to live with children successfully?

 

I live with 2 small children & 4 BC's. I have an older dog who is not great with children but he has been bred badly & has what I consider to be a poor temperament. I would not knowingly place a dog like this in a home with children, but if I were a breeder I would be looking at changing the temperaments of the dogs I breed rather than making definite plans for the future not to place in homes with children.

 

Would you have a problem selling a dog to home with children? Would you evaluate the lines or would you expect that a nice working dog will have a temperament good enough to be able to coexist with children? Is it something you would even have to consider? I guess it is not so much of an issue as working dogs tend to have less interaction with children. I know there will be BC's who have been bred well with temperaments unsuitable for family life from time to time, I just think there is something wrong if you need to make a definitive statement that you will not do it.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I would sell a any of my dogs/puppies into homes with children. They may be working dogs but when they aren't working I expect them to be apart of the family and families usually involve children of some sort.

 

Now, I do know some dogs from show breeders that I wouldn't leave any living thing alone with for any period of time. Then again, my that is just my experience with show bred Border Collies! So maybe I just haven't had the pleasure of meeting the "nice" ones.

 

Katelynn

[painted_ponies]

I don't sell dogs , but I do work in rescue. I'm not saying I have a blanket rule against homes with children, but the children need to be older and the home has to be evaluated very carefully. Too many dogs wind up in rescue because of problems with the children. In fact, that's one of the top three reasons we hear.

 

Honestly, I don't think BCs are, in general, a breed for small children. They tend to be quick to react to things like, for example, children dropping out of the sky on them while they're sleeping. The drive-y ones chase and nip running children.

Yes, a knowledgeable home can address these problems, but IME most homes will not, and the dog winds up homeless.

 

As for breeding for temperament with children, I'll leave that one to people who actually breed BC.

[Kyrasmom]

I rescue also and quite honestly, with a good dog I evaluate the children and parents in homes with children. While I do think there are some very wired BC's that would not do well with small kids, I also feel that they are the exception. What is not the exception, are parents with overindulged children who don't allow for a dog to be a dog...or for a kid to fall on his butt now and again. In my experience, it can be the kids'/parents' fault as much or moreso as the dog. But the dog gets the blame and gets rehomed. Obviously.

 

I also find it disturbing that BC's bred for show and pet are not good with kids. I don't do the show circuit (obviously) but have 2 show bred BC's that are absolutely bomb proof and almost pee their pants with joy when they see kids. But then with the exception of my hypo thyroid boy (who loves kids but has grouchy moments) all my dogs love kids and people in general.

 

I don't have an issue with placing dogs in homes with kids...but they have to be good kids. It's just wrong to purposely breed dogs that are of poor temperament...especialy when the purpose has nothing to do with what being a border collie is all about.

 

Maria

[zenotri]

I think rescue dogs are different b/c you usually don't know their parentage.

 

The point I am trying to make to these people, which they have chosen to ignore completely, is that I believe that rather than continuing to tell stories about monstrous children & parents, they need to take some responsibility for what they are breeding, especially if their market is a pet home.

 

Of course every dog can be pushed to the limit, but a dog that is worried about children making sudden movements is IMO likely to have a whole heap of other issues as well. A dog that will bite & scar if a child accidently steps on their foot is also likely to have other issues. I think it is rare for a dog to have a great solid temperament but just not like kids.

 

My 2 young dogs were not bred to be family pets but they have very solid temperaments & I believe this is why they are so good with my children. Ironically, the only dog I have who was bred for nothing but a pet is the one I have to worry about.

 

Anyway, I guess it's like flogging a dead horse, they are so blind to what they are producing & it is always easier to blame someone else, rather than recognise that there is room for improvement in what they are doing. I don't condone why they are breeding but in a country where these breeding practices are the norm for the BC, it's a very scary thought.

[kelpiegirl]

I think "sociability", or the ability to handle social situations is important. Sure, many of us don't socialize a lot, so we lose sight of that quality. Then there are those of us always out and about with people. I want a dog who I can take somewhere, and that is comfortable with the goings on, and likes people in general. That is to say I don't need a dog who is over the top friendly, but one that is happy, and can relax around others. Kids are a hard thing. Some are very good, and some are not. They need to be taught how to interact, and all interaction should be supervised. That said, if you have a well bred dog with good temperament, I don't see why you would not allow your pups to go to homes with kids. Of course the # and age of kids, on an individual basis comes into play. For instance, I wouldn't sell a pup to a home with toddlers and infants. How will there be time for the pup? Perhaps a home with a double digit kid, and another who is about 8 or 9...

Julie

 

I think rescue dogs are different b/c you usually don't know their parentage.

 

The point I am trying to make to these people, which they have chosen to ignore completely, is that I believe that rather than continuing to tell stories about monstrous children & parents, they need to take some responsibility for what they are breeding, especially if their market is a pet home.

 

Of course every dog can be pushed to the limit, but a dog that is worried about children making sudden movements is IMO likely to have a whole heap of other issues as well. A dog that will bite & scar if a child accidently steps on their foot is also likely to have other issues. I think it is rare for a dog to have a great solid temperament but just not like kids.

 

My 2 young dogs were not bred to be family pets but they have very solid temperaments & I believe this is why they are so good with my children. Ironically, the only dog I have who was bred for nothing but a pet is the one I have to worry about.

 

Anyway, I guess it's like flogging a dead horse, they are so blind to what they are producing & it is always easier to blame someone else, rather than recognise that there is room for improvement in what they are doing. I don't condone why they are breeding but in a country where these breeding practices are the norm for the BC, it's a very scary thought.

[Pat W.]

MABCR we PREFER older children but get in apps of all types and during the phone interview we try to educate and make the PA very aware of a dogs herding instinct and the consequences with small children. In my opinion unless a dog will never ever see a child in any situation which unless they live on a deserted island which is unlikely, they need to be socialized and tested with children. If you have lines that have temperment problems then you shouldnt be breeding them. Of course on the other end of things children should be tested and socialized with dogs in mind too and if there are temperment problems on that end of things THEY shouldn't be bred either :oP.

[juliepoudrier]

Of course every dog can be pushed to the limit, but a dog that is worried about children making sudden movements is IMO likely to have a whole heap of other issues as well. A dog that will bite & scar if a child accidently steps on their foot is also likely to have other issues. I think it is rare for a dog to have a great solid temperament but just not like kids.

I disagree. I don't think you can generalize that a dog that doesn't love kids has also must have other issues. That's just not true. I have a bunch of border collies (9), some rescue, some working bred, some raised by me from puppyhood and some not. Even the most well-socialized (exposed regularly to children of all shapes and sizes), raised properly from puppyhood dog I have is not overly fond of children. Maybe it's because I don't have children and so no amount of exposure *elsewhere* makes that big a difference unless the dog is actually raised with children, I don't know. But in general they all have good, solid temperaments. They travel with me to sheepdog trials and just wherever I'm going, including to work, and I don't worry about them causing problems with people or animals. They are good citizens. But kids worry them (unless said kid has a ball to throw, in which case they will fetch, but they won't let the kid touch them).

 

Border collies *are* reactive to movement. That's part of the working dog package. IMO it's not a matter of being "worried" about movement--it's a matter of seeing movement and wanting to control it. There's a difference. I would expect that most *any* dog could be trained to leave the kids alone, but in the hands of the average pet owner, that may not be something that will happen. And kids, even the best behaved ones, forget themselves. I once had an 8- or 9-year-old neighbor who was a great kid. He was a good listener and behaved himself. He would want to play in my yard with my dogs and I usually let him, with the admonition that he shouldn't run as it might trigger a chase from one of my rescues. Most of the time he was good about it, but one time he wasn't and he got nipped (no blood). I couldn't even now say that the dog was entirely at fault for that nip, nor do I think it showed some sort of temperament problem. The child knew he had made a mistake and apologized for not doing as I had asked.

 

My point is that while I agree that if you're breeding for a pet market, you should be breeding dogs that don't have temperament issues, I think there's a bit of a disconnect between that desire and a what a dog really is, no matter what the breed. In the case of a show dog breeder, I would guess that part of the problem may well arise from the likelihood that even dogs not worked on stock for generations probably retain some of the rudimentary characteristics that make a stockdog. So the dogs retain enough working characteristics--not in any sort of cohesive package--to possibly make them troublesome, but lack enough of the pieces to guarantee the sort of stability you might see in well-bred working dogs. That's just my theory though.

 

At any rate, I would be hesitant to sell a pup to a home with small kids--unless the potential owner was someone I knew who would actually raise the dog *and* children to properly respect on another. Yep, it helps to have a bombproof vegetable of a dog, but even if one has such a dog, it's not fair to that dog to expect it to take the kind of abuse (intentional or unintentional) that kids can dole out. (And that goes for any breed of dog.) So unless I knew the buyer well enough to feel sure the dog would get a fair shake WRT the children, I wouldn't do it. My family always had dogs--many different breeds, including some herding breeds and others that are reactive to movement, like sighthounds. We never had a problem with any of them, but then again, mom taught all of us how to treat dogs properly (i.e., that they aren't toys)--and child rearing has changed since then.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

We rarely place dogs in homes with small kids. There are lots of reasons why:

 

1) liability - as a rescue, we can't take the chance. We only place dogs with known, demonstrated positive histories with kids into new homes with kids.

 

2) experience - as someone said earlier, it is one of the top three reasons why dogs are in our rescue in the first place (biting or aggression toward the family kids, or anxiety being around kids). And this is NOT because they are rescues - lots of them come from known breeders. We are talking about dogs that are 6-10 months old who have already demonstrated a strong dislike for kids.

 

3) On a forum like this, where everyone is gaga over their BC this may come as a bit of a shocker - but *many* 'average' dog owners, when faced with the reality of giving a border collie what it needs when the dog is competing with children for that energy and attention, don't do right by the dog.

 

The number of applications I get from people, usually families with small kids, who have NO idea what they are trying to sign on for, is staggering. (Just this week I surprised a lady who thought she was perfect for a very active adolescent dog in our foster program, by explaining to her that she would need to exercise the dog before she went to work every day.) The phrases that make me cringe the most are "My child is very affectionate and would love to hug the doggie all the time." Yikes. And also "We think it would be great if Spot herded the kids around and kept them in line ha-ha." Ha ha indeed - until Spot makes contact and you realize how uncute it is. Or until Spot grabs one of your kid's friends and the friend's parents go to Animal Control.

 

I of course evaluate on a case by case basis and have placed some wonderful dogs in homes with wonderful kids and it has been a very happy match. But so many of our incoming dogs are just not suited to homes with kids, or came out of homes with kids where the dogs were unhappy. And the number of times I have heard 'since little Johnny was born, we just don't have time for Spot' makes my stomach hurt. And I go get Spot and he is fat and undermuscled and running a track around the fence perimeter and panting like a maniac because Spot's going nuts.

 

If I were breeding border collies for the pet trade I would be darn sure to breed bomb proof dogs. If I were breeding dogs for something else, I don't think it would be my primary concern. I also think it's important to differentiate between a dog that is aggressive to kids *generally* and a dog that can't live with them. Many of the dogs we have palced that came from homes where they had bitten a child are perfectly safe dogs to be out and about in public but they are not dogs that should be forced to live in close proximity to children. Even the two dogs of mine that would undoubtedly bite a child can play ball with them and receive pats from children in public, but neither of them would be safe living in a home with kids. I agree with Julie that this does not render them unstable dogs, it just makes them reactive, sensitive dogs.

 

RDM

[2 Devils]

My bc is 17 months old now. She has a few issues and always has. The one problem she does not have is her love for kids. She will hurt herself trying to get to kids and teenagers. She is food obsessed but will turn her back on treats if kids are around. This same dog is skittish around adults and even more skittish around strangers (except kids). So yes some bcs are good with kids and some are not. I do not have kids but I can understand why breeders and rescues would be hesitant to sell/adopt to a home with young kids.

 

Even though Tempe is great with kids, I will never leave her alone with them. I won't leave any of my dogs alone with kids since you never know what will happen.

[painted_ponies]

Of course every dog can be pushed to the limit, but a dog that is worried about children making sudden movements is IMO likely to have a whole heap of other issues as well. A dog that will bite & scar if a child accidently steps on their foot is also likely to have other issues. I think it is rare for a dog to have a great solid temperament but just not like kids.

 

Julie and RDM have provided great answers, as usual. I just wanted to chime in my disagreement with the idea that if a dog doesn't care for children or isn't good with children it's likely to have lots of other issues.

 

Violet is very sweet-tempered, and loooves kids, but she wouldn't make a child's dog because she's a control freak. Busy movement drives her nuts. My husband repeats "sit" "stay" & "annngh" about a dozen times before he can make his lunch, fix his coffee, and get out the door in the morning, in an effort to keep collie teeth off his feet and ankles. Vi adores DH and would never hurt him, but she can nip pretty firmly and I imagine could easily hurt a child. I've often wondered how such a beautiful, sweet girl wound up homeless, and I bet this is how.

 

Faith I'm not sure about. I don't have kids and don't particularly care for most of them (and I admit I have a whole heap of other issues ), but I've tried hard to set Faith up to have positive interactions with kids, just so she doesn't grow up without encountering some. She seems to regard them as little alien beings - she's fine with polite ones who move slowly if I'm right there with her, but she thinks they're too weird to hang out with alone and if they make sudden moves she's outta there. But she's just great with adults and super with other animals.

[sweet_ceana]

I was always under the impression that when we got Ceana if we decided to have kids there would be strict rules for the childs behavior around her. We expected to have to teach any child to play with her in a fashion that wouldn't lead to nipping and doggy bossy-ness. She was the favorite of the little girl on the farm that we got her from and so (mystery- as was her name up until seven weeks) got a lot of kid attention. I am not sure if that is what made her love children so much, but she does. To my surprise the dog I would have put money on to attempt to heard small children doesn't. We had a three year old and seven year old in the house for a visit and ceana followed the three year old around, played gently, and watched her intently on the stair ( while standing two stairs infront of the little one) as if to keep her from falling. I couldn't belive how sweet she was with them. I guess my point is that I agree with the notion of testing a dog around children before combining the two, and that you never know how exactly they will behave until you try.

[Barb Scott]

We had a new washer delivered today. The deliveryman came up from the basement and said I notice you have BCs (our dogs were out with my husband,but he evidently saw the agility ribbons and BC posters all over the basement). He then said that he had a BC that he loved, but had to get rid of it because it was chasing his toddler around and nipping at it. Obviously, he could have worked a little harder to keep his BC, but I'm sure he's not the only BC owner to dump his dog because of this. I've had BCs that were great with kids and others that I would not trust for a minute by anyone under 12. If a breeder refuses to sell to someone with small children, I'd call them great breeders.

Barb S

[Kyrasmom]

If a breeder refuses to sell to someone with small children, I'd call them great breeders. Barb S

 

But not if they're breeding for a pet market to begin with, which was my understanding from the original post.

 

As I said, I do rescue, but it's not breed specific, it's all breed, all mutt, and the excuses people come up with to relinquish dogs, 90% of the time are just that. Excuses to explain why they didn't put the time and effort into training the dog.

 

And yes, the dog always loses when it's up against the kids (rightfully so I would suppose) but many many times, the fault lies within adult laziness.

 

For example, a few years back my partner placed a BC mix (probably some aussie and cattle dog mixed in) pup with a family with kids around 10 and a dog trainer in the family. I was against the placing because from the questions asked, I thought the pup was up against a losing battle but my partner thought the questions was thoughtful and against my better judgment I let the pup go.

 

He comes back, full grown, because he didn't BOND and would topple the kids when they were running around. They said it might have something to do with the fact that he was a rescue ... so I had them come up to my place to drop him off and meet his TWO siblings which we kept. They were amazed at how affectionate my boys were and at least had the gumption to admit that perhaps then the problem was them...well that and he needed more room to run.

 

Anyway, the dog was allowed to be a dog and within a few weeks he had bonded to me, the pack, and anyone who came to the house for more than 10 minutes. I took him to play with some dog proof kids and he was fine, obviously if they charged around like maniacs he gave chase...but that's not always a BC thing, it's a Lab thing, it's a retriever thing, it's a mutt thing. And that's what people who want dogs but have kids have to understand. Even the gentlest of dogs, who enjoys kids, is still a dog and can cause the same tumble or nip of a less tolerant dog. It's up to them to supervise the interaction and ensure it's safe for both parties. Anyway, I had him for a year, placed him with a dog savvy couple who actually had his sister, and everyone is in heaven. He bonded in a big way because there were no unreasonable expectations and because he's loved for being the big goofy dog that he is.

 

There are dogs who are uncomfortable around kids and would do better in a childless home but many of the dogs turned into rescue with this excuse...are just dogs who were dogs who fell into the lap of lazy people.

 

Getting back to the original thought, to purposely breed dogs with iffy temperaments for the PET market and then hide behind the excuse of "screening against children" is just another form of laziness.

 

Obviously, JMO.

 

Maria

[Beth G]

So much great advice !

I agree with breeders that are careful who they place their dogs with. After all the dogs belong to them, and they are trying to prevent the poor dog from being rehomed and going through an awful upheavel. I think that is very responsible.

[Katelynn & Gang]

When selling puppies (or placing puppies/dogs) you should know what sort of home you are selling into (children included), no excuse.

 

Some families raise their kids correctly with dogs and the children learn "animal" respect from a very young age. Usually you can tell those that do raise their children with this sort of respect and those that don't. The ones that don't are homes I wouldn't sell into anyway, kids or no kids. I guess I think of it this way: IF someone isn't responsible enough to teach their children from right and wrong with animals at a very young age, what are they going to do with a Border Collie that has the mentality level of a four year old?

 

More is dependent on the adults and the sort of home they manage, rather then the children who grow there.

 

Katelynn

[Bill Fosher]

To me the distrubing thing is not that people are breeding pet or show dogs with temperaments that can't be trusted around children, it's that they're breeding pet or show dogs period. As Julie pointed out, the very things that can make Border collies problematic in the wrong hands are among the things that make them great sheepdogs. Breed out interest in movement in the name of pet temperament, and you've bred away the dog.

 

At the same time I agree that most pet people don't seem to think that it's possible to train Border collies to behave properly around kids. Probably 9 dogs out of 10, it is entirely possible if you start young enough -- with both the puppy and the kids.

[AK dog doc]

One of the key points IS training the children. Some kids are naturals - they have an amazing intuitive sense for the dog and are able to discern without any apparant effort how best to interact with most of them. Other kids you couldn't train with a shock collar. (Not that I'm suggesting this. Honest.) At any rate, try telling the average prosepctive pet owner that the kids need to go to a training class before they have a dog. Most of them would be deeply offended and stalk away muttering and accusing you of all sorts of heinous things - and your ancestors, too. In such cases, the smartest thing might well BE not placing a dog there (ignoring for the moment the whole issue with whether or not to breed BCs as pets; you all know my views on that.)

 

A LOT of dogs don't like kids. They're noisy, boisterous and unpredictable, they often do not understand what is and is not okay in the world-o-dogs, they may at random times FORGET what is and is not okay, they're often clumsy (especially little ones), and they may be ungentle (if not downright rough). And mind you, I LIKE children. I'm not saying this because I think they're evil - it's because they're CHILDREN. They ARE uncoordinated and noisy and boisterous and all the rest - because of their youth. We don't expect a 4 year old to have Olympic-class muscular coordination. It's perfectly natural that they don't. But why should we expect dogs to automatically tolerate being tripped over, squeezed til their eyes are popping out, laid on top of, having their head "patted" with a full-arm whack, being seized at random moments and carted around upside down in the ecstatic grip of a toddler who's just as likely to fall on them as set them down gently (and right-side up)? Particularly when said toddler repeatedly "ignores" [does not reconize] the dog's escalating warnings that this Is Not Okay?

 

Inexplicably, two of my dogs (Finn and Kenzie) LOVE children. Finn was bred in a home with a small child, so that may be part of it, but Kenzie wasn't, and she's still completely mad for them. Raven seems cheerfully interested in them, but I kind of doubt she'd put up with too much from them. But why would I want her to? I'm not big on letting some random child, no matter how adorable, torture my dog. But I digress. The point is that some dogs DO like children, even without training, and those dogs should be blessed to the high heavens for their tolerance - but it should not be automatically expected of every dog, and not even automatically expected of every dog trained to be around children and/or exposed to them in daily life.

 

I think I, too, would have to disagree that a dog who doesn't like children is of necessity otherwise unstable. I see a great many dogs of every stripe on a daily basis, and some perfectly wonderful, calm, kind, stable and otherwise beautifully behaved dogs just don't like kids. Some start out nervous around children, but the majority have learned not to like them - because the parents of said children did not train the kids to behave properly around the dog.

 

I think the training has to go both ways. It is beyond me how many people think it's a must to train the DOG how to act, but ignore training the KIDS how to act. The best success is gained when BOTH are trained. Sometimes you get lucky - as with Kenzie - but it doesn't do to entrust the safety of your child's face to luck.

 

JMO, of course.

[rosefarm]

I agree with AK dog doc, train the children, my kids grew up with dogs in the house, and they were taught under no uncertain terms how to respect animals, sometimes it amazes me the kids that come over - especially from my friends that shudder at the idea of having pets - the lack of animal empathy and understanding they possess. But I think that that is more of an argument as to why people should have pets when they have children. (sorta). I don't think the boy who thinks beating cats over the head is funny should have pets. But sometimes it seems a vicious cycle, mother has disdain for all things furred, child is attraced to furred things but has no concept for how to act and gets bit, perpetuating the cycle. My kids HAVE made mistakes and accidentally hurt something. but they felt HORRIBLE and mended their ways. Lily has made a mistake and bit me in the butt. She felt horrible with little correction, prostrated herself and hasn't attempted it since.

 

We almost adopted a dog from a foster home, he lived with us for 4 days. He loved me and I loved him. Problem was he guarded me from the children, ran after them like prey and bit them, breaking skin on Connor's belly. I had to call the foster and say, I'm sorry but this isn't going to work. He is a GREAT dog, just not right for kids. The foster rightfully took him back right away - she cared for him. But she threw the baby out with the bathwater. She started saying there was no way we should adopt any puppies (he was 10 months) nothing under 2 years old because we couldn't handle it, and she would never adopt to houses with children again. It kind of frustrated me.

 

THAT dog should not have been around children, other dogs have different triggers. We adopted 4 month old Lily from the shelter and she's been heaven sent, there is just an innate sense of love and patience that she exhibits towards the kids that Buster lacked. But all kids are bad, it was our fault, etc. etc. I understand she was frustrated.

 

sometimes its just innate nature whether the dog is kid friendly or not

 

allright I've rambled enough

 

--Denise

[Michelle K]

Hi! I've been reading through this thread and I agree with some and don't agree with some. First, I do have a small child....7 months old. I did animal rescue for 10years. I lived with many different breeds ranging from Yorkies and Chihuahuas up to Wolf Hybrids. The majority, though, were herding dogs, such as the BC, Aussie, GSD, Malinois, and Shelties. I have put a lot of time over the years with dogs that were abused, neglected, given up due to problems with children, given up due to other behavioral or medical problems. I would not place many of those dogs into homes with children. My reason for that was mostly due to the way the parents responded to their children. If there are kids running wild and the parents are ignoring them, then naturally that is an accident waiting to happen. The ones I did place with families that had children had extensive interviewing of the family as well as extensive testing of the dog in different situations. I have spent most of my life (30+ years) with dogs. I currently have 1 dog that is a certified therapy dog and 1 that is training to be a therapy dog. I'm, also, getting ready to start agility training, plus this doesn't count all of the obedience training I do at home with them. These dogs are put through a number of different situations, such as being grabbed suddenly, exposed to wheel chairs and walkers, sudden movements, loud machines or patients, etc. We do have children that go with us on these visits. Two of the kids are under 5 and one of them is 10. I can honestly say that these kids behave extremely well around the dogs. What I'm getting to with this is that there is a Border Collie rescue in my area and there are some breeders that refuse to even talk to you if you have children under the age of 6 (I think there was one that had the age of 10 as the limit, but can't remember for sure). IMHO, that's really bad. I agree that the "average dog owner" does not go to these levels. After 10yrs of rescue, I have seen and heard so many things that it would make you sick to think that there are really people out there like that. Our dogs are constantly getting desensitized to children. We have neighbors that have children ranging from 16 months old up to high school ages. We go to great lengths to have a harmonious home, especially considering we have 3 herding dogs and 1 Terrier, plus I do not work outside of our home, so I'm able to put more time into them. I understand that homes like this are few and far in between. It's just sad that we are automatically put into a general category, because we have a child.

[Kyrasmom]

I think that's why it's so important to evaluate the family and the kids before automatically saying no. Life is full of shades of gray, many rescues require a fenced yard for good reason....and yet some (many) dogs thrive in an apartment with an active owner. It really comes down to, in just about every case, to owner responsibility. Is the owner/parent going to step up and do right by their dog? Will the kids be expected to be as well behaved as the dog? Will the parent not freak if the kid gets a scratch. I recall being nipped with I was little and I got spanked for bugging the dog while he was sleeping! It wasn't a bad dog...it was just a dog.

 

Unfortunately we live in a very ego driven society in which everyone wants things easy and they don't want to put effort into anything...thus the dog exercises in the back yard is bad if he digs a hold and a dog who nips a kid racing around screaming at the top of his lungs is aggressive. It's just not that simple.

 

Rescue organizations have the added responsibility of finding permanent homes for animals that have already been dumped, that's why they seem too stringent sometimes....but I've found that a little persistence goes a long way in proving intentions. At least it does with me. Prove to me that you are a responsible parent, which includes parenting skills, and I'll place a dog in a home with kids.

 

Maria

[RaisingRiver]

I agree with Maria that there should not be an automatic no to kids. I have 3 kids all under 12 and I AM the kind of person you want to own a BC.

 

My kids aren't really animal lovers. Baby animals are cute, and they pet them all of 2 seconds and they are done. I wouldn't allow any of MY kids to have their own personal pet - even I ended up taking care of the gerbils. As a married couple we agreed not to get a dog until our youngest child was 2yo (darn kids kept popping out!!). All the pets at our house are my personal pets. But my kids are fairly savvy now and I specifically work with my dogs to have appropriate behaviors. And I've become really picky about adding more pets into our family to make sure it's a good fit. Hence adopting Diesel at 15mos rather then getting an 'unknown' puppy.

 

I don't think families with kids should be auto turned away. Realistically, couples without kids should be more scrutinized since probably one of the top reasons a dog is in rescue is because 'we're having a baby and can't keep the dog'.

[Michelle K]

I agree completely with you, RaisingRiver. Like you're doing, I'm going to be the one who's the picky one. I have final say in what comes through here. I'm doing that, because I'm the one who spends most of the time with training and everything that involves the dogs. My daughter is going to be raised how I was....to respect animals. Before Nykie came into our lives, I checked into the local border collie rescue and there was a dog that I would love to have given a home to, but they do not adopt to families with children under 6, so that automatically knocked us out of being able to get her. I'm glad that I got Nykie, though. She's a wonderful little girl.

[zenotri]

I just want to thank everyone for their input in this thread...I have learnt a lot & reconsidered my original position a little. I still have a problem with the way these dogs are bred, obviously their purpose but also their temperaments. The fact that there are breeders who are breeding these nervy fear aggressive dogs & then thinking it is OK so long as they are not placed in homes with kids is still a major problem for me. I know 2 such BC's very well from well known lines...neither live in a home with children but both would go out of their way at seeing my very dog savvy daughter & inflict serious damage if they could. I am sorry, but these dogs just should not be bred period.

 

As far as real BC's, I can see that not of them like or should like children, but still maintain that dogs wth solid temperaments should be able to coexist with them or at the very least see them without providing a constant serious threat.

[Macks mum]

Hi everyone, i have been brought up from the day i was born with dogs mostly whippets as my grandad bred show and racing dogs but they where always bred for temperment first as for him it was not about sucess and money just the love of an elegant graceful breed and first and formost the dogs where pets with show and racing as fun past times for both the dogs and us.

From the day any off his puppies where born they where always well handled by children and adults alike hence he always sold well ajusted pups who where used to kids and all household noises and strange adults coming and going etc. I was taught how to respect and treat all animals from the time i could walk i have done this with my children i have a 14yr old boy 10yr old girl who wants to be a vet! A 3 yrold boy who has an amazing affinity with dogs and fully understands what is and is not acceptable behaviour to the point that if he's playing with aloud toy and mack gets a bit frightened and cowers or hides then he'll put the toy away without any promting and call mack and give him a cuddle when he comes over. I also have a 18 month old daughter who is starting to understand the boundries of what she can and can't do because i've always had dogs around from when all my children where born then i always tell them form being a few months old to be nice and start to teach them how to stroke a dog and interact . I have never experienced any problems with my dogs and children as i also believe that a young pup has to learn the same as a child that there are boundries and learn to accept some ruff and tumble and a bit of pulling without to much reaction . I have found that the majority of dogs will except this as long as they have a safe haven to reteat to when they have had enough.

My staffy used to take herself upstairs to my bedroom and go to sleep when she'd had enough of the kids. Mack has a spot beside the sofa nxt to the wall thats his safe place and the kids know to leave him when he goes there.

Guess what i'm saying is that kids need to be trained to respect the dogs and the dogs need the same so do many parents though sadly. Although i do think that maybe training should be manantory for a lot of new owners and maybe they should start teaching children some sort of petcraft in school.