smileyzookie Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Ok, I know this is gonna sound super lame, but seriously just listen to me. Riven goes ape on walks, pulls to the extent a choke chain is actually choking her atm, and barks and acts like a fool at dogs. I remembered when I first got her, the way I got her to heel was spraying water from a water bottle in front of her and it got her attention and she stopped being a punk. I tried carrying the water bottle last night and treats. She did GREAT most of the time, and when she went ahead of me I'd spray ahead of her. Here's my problem. When I got closer to home, I'd go to give her a treat (I was randomly giving her hot dogs for bein good) and she flinched and acted like I had just beatten her. By the time I got home, I'd stop to hand her a treat and she'd draw back and blink like I was gonna hit her and then she realized I had a treat and would take it. We got inside, and she is usually happy to be home and waggin her tail and she just got on the couch and cowered from me when I unsnapped the leash. At no point in this did I hit her, yell or anything aggresive or even remotely like that. I dont think I even sprayed her...I sprayed ahead of her. So my question is, am I being detremental in our relationship by using this if it creates this kind of reaction? I just keep thinking, its JUST water, but to her Im wondering if its like really THAT horrible. Background: Riven is 2, I adoped her over a year ago from the Humane Society. She was beaten and abandoned. She does have seperation anxiety, and she used to be VERY shy, although she's gotten really good now. Im careful to try to never speak cross to her cause the vet said she's really sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkie Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 when my dog goes on a walk she's a vacuum cleaner the whole way and will jump at people and especially other dogs. When shes excited theres little i can do to calm her down except to stand firm and hang on tight to the leash....she has to be hit by a big dump truck before she'll settle down . I don't think Riven's reaction is because of your "aggression" with a water. Could it be that the way you do some motions is reminding her of her past? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted March 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 I thought so at first, I really remembered back trying to think of any motions. But really there were none. I just walked, and if she got outta hand, I just sprayed ahead of her and the spray bottle was on the side opposite of her and I sprayed more in front of me than her! LOL thats why Im just so confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossie Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 My dog is *very* sensitive about interrupters. He has had a shaker can of coins shook near him once and a water bottle spritzed near him twice and now if he sees either of those things, he reacts as though it is a conditioned punisher not an interrupter. I suspect that Riven found your walk to be completely overwhelming but couldn't shut down until you made it back home again. I'm think she'll be fine, but I think you need to find a different way to teach her to walk nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpine Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 I thought so at first, I really remembered back trying to think of any motions. But really there were none. I just walked, and if she got outta hand, I just sprayed ahead of her and the spray bottle was on the side opposite of her and I sprayed more in front of me than her! LOL thats why Im just so confused. Bucky at 4 months seems to be learning to walk quite well (still pulling a bit but not much). My last BC, Jack, on the other hand, was great on a short obedience heel, but for a regular walk, it was hopeless. Finally I just couldn't take it any more and when he was about 2 1/2, I got a Haltie. It took him about a half and hour to get used to it, but it did the trick. From then on, walks were shear pleasure for both of us. I could then walk him anywhere with ease. Now they have a variation on the Haltie. I think it's called a gentle leader. You might want to look into trying it. It was a godsend for me, and for Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercentrics Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 I think this is a very good example of the negative impact of using aversives in training. I just read another training book call "Let The Dog Decide" by Dale Stavroff. It isn't groundbreaking, but he does a very good job of explaining why all positive training is better than training with aversive corrections. He is a trainer in the Vancouver BC area. He trains all sorts of dogs, but herding breeds are his personal favorites. Using aversives will negatgively impact your relationship with the dog, and given Riven's history, you need to approach everything in a way that will build trust. When giving a "correction", Stavrott says alway be sure that the dog will not connect you with the correction. I found this book at the library, but I am sure you could get it from Amazon, too. Kathy Robbins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Both of my dogs find squirting water to be extremely aversive. Maybe Riven is like this too. I think your instincts are correct and that you would both probably be more comfortable using another method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Just a suggestion, you mentioned your pup being shy,although doing better... There are a couple of Yahoo groups that might interest you.Clickersolutions and Shy-k9s...positive based and not all clicker based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 What Melanie said: Some dogs are highly reactive to the water sprayer, and it does sounds like you're correctly reading YOUR dog's response to it. (Finn, OTOH, while highly reactive to the sprayer, considers it an opportunity to attack the water stream. He LOVES this game and will lay in wait for the Great Hose Olympics, but some dogs totally hate it. Half my dogs will drink out of the hose, the other half Do Not Like That.) Raven is by far the best "heeler" I have for her age, and was the easiest to train, perhaps because we did only positive reinforcement. (Or perhaps because she is the most brilliant of all my dogs!) I'm not a trainer, and I'm not sure if it will help in your situation as a re-training idea, but the way I taught her was to do circles and figure-eights around cones while on leash. The leash went from her collar to my left hand, then across in front of me with the slack being held in my right hand (I carry treats in my right pocket, and the right hand can easily reach in and get a fresh treat whenever needed). I hold a treat in my left hand along with the leash. I try to keep a little slack in the leash, but not so much that she loses touch with the idea she IS on a leash. I try to keep my left hand (with leash and treat) in the "Heel" position - at the level where I want her head to be, neither in front of me nor too far behind (although right now I'm okay with ber being a step behind, as long as she's not losing touch with where we're going). Raven focuses on the treat and follows along at the position I want; if she gets distracted, I have the leash to remind her of the position and keep her from going too far off it, and I can call her attention back to the treat and the excersise verbally as well. If she's doing great I can just drop my left hand about 6 inches and give her the treat without changing my leash appreciably, and then return my left hand to the previous position and use my right hand to replenish the treat. The cones made her really watch where we were going and taught her that sometimes she has to lengthen her stride to stay in position, and other times she may have to shorten it. The fact that I'm not reaching across with a treat from my right hand kept her from trying to cross in front of me for the treat: she got the treat always from the LEFT hand, in the heel position. Even though my left hand got the treat from my right hand, Raven wasn't aware of that part. (When I was using the right hand to come around and give the treat directly from my right hand to her mouth, she kept crossing in front and pulling ahead to try to get to the treats. If she gets the treat from my left hand, she doesn't do this). Just a thought. Like I say, I'm not a trainer, but that worked better than any other way I've tried to teach a dog to heel. I've worked with several different trainers over the years; all of them used some form of negative reinforcement, and none of the dogs I've trained by other means are as good on the leash. That may be coincedental, but maybe not. I've also seen a number of dogs that did poorly with anything but a Halti or Gentle Leader. As you've already realized, you kinda have to choose what works for THIS dog. As a BTW, I think Riven will forgive you. You are her favorite, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted March 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 I guess my issue is I dont want to "have" to use a Gentle Leader. I did read that they work great till they arent on and the dog knows and still pulls. Argh, that water bottle worked and it really sucks that she is so sensitive to it.... I know Im gonna try the rake attempt (Dixie Girl I think mentioned that) and the treat kind, although its highly doubtful I can be so slick as to not let her know where the treats are LOL. More ideas on how to train it would be superb. Im sorry I just really dont want to use a gentle leader or anything like that. As a BTW, I think Riven will forgive you. You are her favorite, after all. I dunno about that.. she looks pretty unforgiving...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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