Dalesred Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Rhiw just bit me. I cannot believe it. I can't make sense of it, maybe some more experienced heads out there can help. I am so upset and confused. Rhiw, Meg and I were playing hunt the tennis ball. I send them upstairs, hide the ball and they find it. I've noticed that Meg tends to hang back nervously as Rhiw charges around, sniffing everywhere. Ocasionally they have a tiff over the found ball, nothing much. I set out a different version of the game, hiding a ball under one of 3 cushions while they watched. My idea was to scale this up as soon as they got the hang of it. First time I did it, I placed the ball, sat back on my haunches, dog either side. Meg was quick off the mark this time for once and as soon as Rhiw saw she had found the ball he snarled and bit my upper arm. I was wearing a fleece top and he broke the skin, just. This dog has shown no signs of aggression whatsoever until this time. Quite the reverse -he can be clingy and is often submissive. He has just turned 3. Meg, my other dog is 8. Nothing else has changed in their diet or routine . They have perhaps been slightly short changed this week on their walks but I have made up for it with games and mental stimulation indoors. He has been let in no doubt of the severity of this action, but I want to work out why. What provoked this attack on me? If it was a dominace thing with the ball and seeing Meg win, why did he go for me? I'm heartbroken by this. Any and all advice is very welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 It may have been projected aggression, or he may have felt cornered. It could be a myriad of things. You may never know why. What you can do is to stop these games. He may have felt he had ownership over the ball because he finds it so much- and he wins it. He can't be allowed to own anything. Start taking him and Meg on long walks for their exercize. Work on obedience every day. Teach him that to have anything he must do something for it. No more furniture either. Keep him on the floor. Basically boot camp for this boy. It won't hurt, and you can start to get some insight as to how he regards himself to you in how he responds to your requests. Julile Rhiw just bit me. I cannot believe it. I can't make sense of it, maybe some more experienced heads out there can help. I am so upset and confused. Rhiw, Meg and I were playing hunt the tennis ball. I send them upstairs, hide the ball and they find it. I've noticed that Meg tends to hang back nervously as Rhiw charges around, sniffing everywhere. Ocasionally they have a tiff over the found ball, nothing much. I set out a different version of the game, hiding a ball under one of 3 cushions while they watched. My idea was to scale this up as soon as they got the hang of it. First time I did it, I placed the ball, sat back on my haunches, dog either side. Meg was quick off the mark this time for once and as soon as Rhiw saw she had found the ball he snarled and bit my upper arm. I was wearing a fleece top and he broke the skin, just. This dog has shown no signs of aggression whatsoever until this time. Quite the reverse -he can be clingy and is often submissive. He has just turned 3. Meg, my other dog is 8. Nothing else has changed in their diet or routine . They have perhaps been slightly short changed this week on their walks but I have made up for it with games and mental stimulation indoors. He has been let in no doubt of the severity of this action, but I want to work out why. What provoked this attack on me? If it was a dominace thing with the ball and seeing Meg win, why did he go for me? I'm heartbroken by this. Any and all advice is very welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Sounds like frustration to me. I have seen many a BC biting leash/toy/handler's leg while waiting to run their turn in agility. Mine does it. He didn't really even look at you, did he? Just turned and grabbed and let go again? Maybe some growling involved? Probably frustration. Just avoid such situations and you probably will never see it again. . . The above advice is sound, just make sure he doesn't see you fussing over the other dog but not him to the point where he feels MORE frustrated about it. In the future. . . play games like that one at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I agree. Redirected aggression. And don't play that game anymore! In fact, I would have stopped it when the 'scuffles' over the ball started. Clearly Rhiw's impulse control needs some work. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted March 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Thanks for these responses. Yep, their outdoor exercise will definitely be increased - their lack this week has been a very temporary set of affairs. They are never allowed on any of the furniture, either of them. No more find the ball. I think there is a possession issue at work actually - Meg is very wary around him when playing this game - perhaps she sensed something I was too stupid to spot. So I'll work more on the working for everything. I've always been very strict on this with them - especially food - they must sit and stay until told they can eat and so forth.But I'll redouble this - sitting for ball to be thrown and so on. Any other obvious things I should do? I'm really gutted that this has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted March 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 perhaps she sensed something I was too stupid to spot. Yes RDM, you're right. I should not have carried on with this game, given the 'signals' I already had from my other dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 The only other thing is - remember BC's are a little on the odd side overall, so don't worry too much about it. Many agility handlers have a variety of marks, bruises and scars to show. . . and while of course they don't condone their dogs biting them either by accident (usually when grabbing a toy) or for frustration, you can't always get that "no" out in time, and of course they don't always listen. Essentially what I'm saying is: You're not alone, and he doesn't sound 'aggressive' to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I'm not going to give you any more advice since what you've received is really good advice. I'm just going to say don't beat yourself up too much. Sometimes we don't see the signs they are giving. Dogs are great at body language...we humans, not as much so. As for the game, playing it individually should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 The only other thing is - remember BC's are a little on the odd side overall, so don't worry too much about it. Absolutely. Violet will occasionally nip DH's feet out of similar feelings of frustration - luckily for her, he tends not to take her very seriously. And she adores him. We've no idea why every now and then she decides that a frustrating state of affairs is the fault of DH's feet. The only other thing I'd add is that in future I wouldn't sit down on the same level as the dogs when you feel this sort of competitive dynamic might arise. But take heart - I'm sure Rhiw didn't mean anything by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Rosanne wrote: Many agility handlers have a variety of marks, bruises and scars to show. . . and while of course they don't condone their dogs biting them either by accident (usually when grabbing a toy) or for frustration, you can't always get that "no" out in time, and of course they don't always listen. Oh, that is sooo true. My Kirra is a hard task mistress, and has no hesitation in letting me know when she's frustrated by my crappy handling. For the most part, it's inhibited now, but every now and again, when I'm doing a really bad job trying to master a difficult sequence, she will let me know. I'm reassured to hear that it's not just me, Rosanne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I had a dog that had redirected aggression but she took it out on one of my other dogs (thankfully not the poodle). These incidents did draw some blood a couple times. This usually happened when someone knocked on the door or something else ridiculous. So yes stop playing the game or play it 1 on 1. I always play games 1 on 1 and most out time play is 1 on 1 so we can afford this stuff going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borderlicious Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 What was Rhiw's reaction after he bit you? What was yours? I agree that it sounds like redirected aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Good questions, Borderlicious. I think it was just a frustration/over stimulation kind of response, like the others mentioned. A la nipping at the agility handler. Reminds me of a border collie who was training for flyball. He got so worked up watching the other dogs run, that every time they went by, he'd grab his tug toy and give it the "death shake"! It was just how he redirected himself. I think Rhiw was overstimulated and when Meg got the ball, he just turned and snapped, simply because you were closest. Is it acceptable? No, not at all. But I wouldn't label it aggression, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna frankland (uk) Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 tikki did it to me once hun, i was so shocked! i was sat on the sofa with my dogs and they started getting silly and rowdy. i was a fool for letting it go as i know tikki isnt keen on squirrel in his space (he's getting better though). she went behind me and he lunged at her with his mouth open and caught me. he wasnt even looking at me and i honestly think he thought he was going to get squirrel. he left no marks but he realised at the last moment it was mum he was about to get, and i could see him try and stop the movement. he was so ashamed (people say dogs cant show guilt/shame i beg to differ) he was inconsolable he was whining, shivering, chattering his teeth, averting his gaze etc it broke my heart to see him in such a state. fortunately (i think) i just ignored him, got up let them outside for a wee and then handed out some treats and then gave him some cuddles. hardest thing i ever did was not cuddle him as soon as it happened. poor boy, try my very best to not allow a situation where this could happen again as it stressed him so badly. this is a dog who i would entrust with my life, i KNOW he would never intentionally hurt me. oops sorry for the ramble remove the situation from the dogs, or the dogs from the situation. and dont beat yourself up about it file it away in your head that it happened so you are aware of it, but try not to worry about it cos it can affect your doggie. if you dont think it was a mistake and he went for you not the other dog purposely (answer yourself honestly for this one) then i personally would seek some help from a behaviourist to me though it sounds like an honest misjudgment on his part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 I agree that it sounds like redirected aggression. I'd say so. How long have you had him? How did be react before and after? I'm sure both Meg and him will give you all the signs you need from now on to make sure it doesn't happen again, just make sure you are reading them. That game needs to stop though, with him anyways. If you have "one on one" time with Meg and you'd like to play with her, I'd say that is okay but if it is stressing Rhiw out that much, do not play it with him. I'd be doing some obedience work with him and lots of walking. Nothing that is really going to work him up, for awhile anyway. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Tons of advice here. I just want to say that I know how much it can shake you. I've been bit before (different reason, though) and afterwards I was a mess.... I blamed myself for not reading the signs better, for doing something "stupid".... and also had to deal with the shock and betrayal I felt. It does leave you quite shaken, especially when it breaks the skin. Remember you're human and you're learning along with your dogs... we aren't always perfect at reading their cues, even though we try hard. Chalk it up to a mistake, learn from it, and try to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted March 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 You people are amazing. There is so much great advice and support here, thank you. I did feel a sense of betrayal, truly, so am so grateful to the person who mentioned that. I thought I was weird. However, the hard bit: To answer the questions - it was - and this is so hard to admit - defnitely deliberate - he was going for the nearest thing to him ( me), not Meg. He whipped his head round and bit my upper arm. Had I not been sitting next to him on the floor ( don't usually do this) it wouldn't have happened. I immediately yelled at him and he cringed ( I know there will be different views on that) then I stood up and took him for some time out ( a long time) upstairs. He became immediately submissive - so not sure whether it was my yelling at him or the original action. He has however been very subdued today. We've already stepped up the discipline and last night I fed Meg first and asked him to wait for his tea till she'd finished. We live and learn. Oh - I forgot to say - I've had him since he was 8 weeks old - which is why it came as such a shock. I thought I really understood how he ticked. Like I said - live and learen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 No one would blame you for yelling at him when it just happened. That's how you let him no his behaviour was unacceptable. They know when they do something wrong.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Plus it's a pretty natural reaction. I know when Zeeke acts up in bad ways (biting) I give him VERY VERY long time outs - and it's NOT for his sake. I know that if I'm emotionally upset I'm not going to be able to fairly react to him so it's better that I give MYSELF a long time out to cool down. (Honestly when I got bit I SHOULD HAVE corrected him in some way, but I was in such shock I did nothing at all and walked off. Just my shock reaction, not what I should have done!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 It does sound like classic redirection. I have one pushy BC mix who used to try and nip whoever was playing fetch at the time, he would get so excited that it just happened..and that dog in turn would usually snarl at him. Obviously I don't let that happen now but it's just to say it can be a natural instinct. Try not to feel betrayed, as hard as it sounds. You gave him what sounds like a good correction and now you need to ensure that you control the games played. Also, it bears repeating, that what we define as games, do tangle with the prey drive of dogs so even though the bite is unacceptable, it's not necessarily proof of aggression or dominance or terrible dog syndrome. Reading between the lines, it does seem that there is a bit of tension between your dogs so perhaps you should try and study that a bit closer to ensure that they are not unnecessarily stressed and what your true role is with the dogs. Good luck and don't feel bad! Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 If it was only this one incident, I wouldn't worry. Missy is 13 years old, and the mellowest, most docile dog you will ever meet. She had never bitten anyone in her entire life until last fall. She was asleep on the couch in the family room, and I went to push her off the couch to get her up to go outside. She turned around and bit me so hard that she broke the skin and bruised the bone in my hand, resulting in having to go to the doctor's for antibiotics and a tetanus booster. (Keep in mind that she is part Belgian Sheepdog, and thus has the biting power of a GSD.) The vet agreed that she had probably just been startled and responded involuntarily. Her submissive behavior over the next several days indicated that she knew she had been wrong, and she was particularly affectionate afterwards. (No, I did not punish her, although I will admit that I yelled at her when she bit me; after all, it was my fault.) I did not expect a recurrence, and there has not been one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg's mum Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 In Meg's case her frustration is taken out on anything vertical nearby. She uses her paws mostly - she thinks she has hands. She punches. Meg is a bit clingy and submissive as well and she is rather jealous of attention being given anyone but her. Does Rhiw become jealous of attention given your Meg or DH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerboy Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 I know exactly how you feel , My Badger bit me once, boy oh boy was i shocked. I had just moved after a real bad time in a relationship, badger suffered too, he had got on the bed so i lay next too him for a cuddle and he turned with out warning and bit me. I shouted for him top get of the bed which he did, he looked so bad, ears back, head hanging and giving me his paw. I just broke down in tears, how could my gentle boy do that too me. I knew he was so regretfull, i had too leave him for a while but we soon made up, he lay on his back. threw toys at me, he was so happy. Anyway, i was adviced to give much more whose in charge training, it worked a treat and he has never done it again, so take heart, show him who is boss, we all make mistakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosanne Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 To answer the questions - it was - and this is so hard to admit - defnitely deliberate - he was going for the nearest thing to him ( me), not Meg. He whipped his head round and bit my upper arm. Had I not been sitting next to him on the floor ( don't usually do this) it wouldn't have happened. This is exactly why I WOULDN'T feel betrayed. Yell at him to correct him (and express your pain, of course). But honestly, if he would have bitten a footstool had it been the closest thing, I wouldn't call that 'deliberate' - I would call that 'redirected'. My dog does this too. Just avoid situations where he gets jealous and excited and I think you know the signs now - you'll be fine. Be aware that his mouth may respond at such times. My male mouths his leash rather obsessively outside the rings, and is known for ripping grass up off the agility start line in a VERY 'agressive' manner. (if anybody's watched the USDAA Finals tape from this last fall, he's the 4th 26" dog - the one ripping grass wildly on his stay). My perception of a "deliberate bite" is a dog that bites YOU because he wanted to bite YOU. Not because you happened to be in the way of his frustration when a toy would have easily satisfied him, but deliberate because he didn't like something YOU did and wanted to punish you/take something away from you/hurt YOU. This sounds like nothing in that neighborhood. I'm just hoping you don't think poorly of the little guy for getting a little too excited and opening his mouth when he should have kept it shut, and hoping you realize you are NOT alone with your bite-marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted March 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Meg's Mum -you asked if he gets jealous of Meg or DH - No - not ever in an aggressive way, but he can be , ummm, quite subtly but persistently, attention seeking - you know, sidling up, head on lap, nose under what I'm reading etc - and I do tend to give him a scratch absent mindedly, sniff his ears, whatever. As a lot of you dear folk know I've been off work for a long while with depression and I have found this behaviour of his very comforting and haven't really discouraged it. Perhaps I need to look at curtailing it some. Thanks for the timely reminder ( sorry I forget who it was ) about 'games' triggering the prey drive. Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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