haleigh Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3qo9QjnJC0 How can any normal person get a heel like THAT? After Bonnie Barry, BC herding and obedience extroadinare died from a neck injury, I have lost all hope of successfully training Joy in obedience. Bonnie was my moms best friend...and the only one who could possibly train something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 At first, I wondered how the dog did that without getting a HUGE neck ache! What a good job. I really liked him "killing" his leash afterward! Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyF Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Don't feel discouraged. I know that Bonnie was a wonderful trainer, but there are other good trainers out there who can help you. Also, the type of heeling that they do overseas would be considered crowding here by the American judges. Most judges would have knocked off points for bumping the handler. I would find it hard to walk with my dog right on my leg like that. Kind of like knee knocker sheep, you can't move very well when something is pushing on your knees. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Couldn't watch it all ... I think that is weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 No offense, I wouldn't want a heel like that! I would so be tripping over my dog... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I'm with Zoe--couldn't watch it all, either. I know I come from a totally different world, but why would you want a dog to never look where it's going? Why does it need to stare at her all the time? What's the point of that? Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 And, that would be one of those dogs who has a really hard time learning to work stock, since it would never take it's eyes off the handler, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Belated condolences to your mom. I had a clinic the same weekend (or it may have been the weekend before or after), and was not too far from where it happened, so a lot of people thought it happened at MY clinic. When in fact I didn't even know about it since I was so busy putting mine on (and then going into the Cone of Silence to recover!). I was very sorry to hear about it. Haleigh, the biggest lesson I have learned the last couple months is that the dogs are our best teachers. A good human instructor will teach you how best to help the dog do that. But if you are focused on what the dog is telling you about your method, then you won't be as dependent on your human "help". If you want a behavior that dramatic, you'll have to take it one step at a time (so to speak). Your dog will tell you when she "gets it" and it's time to ask for more. I'm still blundering through the difference between "make" and "ask" in herding, but it's much more straightforward in behavioral training and obedience, and it's made a huge difference for me. Good luck in finding a trainer you trust! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 How can any normal person get a heel like THAT? Very simply,...with lots of practice, lots of time, lots of feeling. lots of frustration, even more determination and a great partner! And that does not make one a normal person but a normal person with a tremendous ability! I have seen the instructor at the school I went to do some phenomenal stuff with her dogs when it comes to heeling as well. It makes me try even harder. That is after getting frustrated at first.....so then I ask myself... How can any normal person get a heel like THAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I occasionally have to sit and wait during a competition obedience class (AKC - gack!) for a ride home. I find modern competition obedience bizarre, impractical, and another exercise in the extremes that accompany kennel club "style". To each his own... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I have struggled with some of the same questions. Here is what I came up with through my involvement with German Shepherds and BC's. Competitive OB is a sport. It comes down to points. Nothing else. There is no objects in the way. The looking up is for the ring. It is complete mental control over the dog. You can bet that as long as the dog is looking at you and working that way for you he is completly focused on you and can read your body language to not need to know where he is going, when he is going to stop, turn etc.. Plus the heeling while touching you (which I don't like much myself) also gives the dog a physical cue. None of the dogs that I have seen compete in OB go for walks like that. As far as the stockdog involvement. I think that if he has the right instinct and handler he can learn to understand that when there is stock around, looking at the handler does not have good consequences for the most part (stock might scatter). But to me that would be totaly dependend on the dog to what extend. And maybe the order of training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 You know what my take on that "staring up adoringly at the handler's face from no matter what position the dog is in" is all about? Treats. The dog's looking at the face because trainers/handlers will drop food out of their mouth - that's how they get that uptight recall where the dog sits practically on your feet, with his/her nose inches from your crotch so his/her head is pointing at your face just in case you are about to open your mouth and *voila!* out drops a piece of chicken! No wonder these dogs seem to "hang on your every word" - it's the chicken! As for the heel, since they are accustomed to the trainer/handler carrying treats in their hand during training, and holding that hand on their waist or chest, where else would the dog look in the ring? Towards that hand (and in the direction of the face) that would (outside of the ring) be loaded with yummy things. It's all about "style" and it's as empty as most anything that is style-based. Why does competition have to be based on "foolishness" rather than worthwhile practicality? Just to avoid cries of hypocrisy, I admit to using treats in training certain behaviors, etc., particularly with puppies and fosters (and an occasional brush-up with my dogs). JMO and I'm off to a sheepdog/cattledog trial... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I've never seen a dog trained to that level worked on sheep, so I can't say what this style and level of training does to the potential to work stock. I suspect it would be difficult to find out because these people don't have much time for other disciplines. I do know that many stockdog trainers I've talked to say that that most dogs trained to stare at their handlers and constantly get their cues from them, consistently face a major setback when they are expected to start working independently and get their cues from the sheep instead. It's less that they won't look at the sheep or think they need to stare at their handlers, and more that when things get hot, they revert to waiting to be told what to do, and get very nervous when they don't get that information. But if your goal is to be at the top of your game in OB and not so much working livestock - if you never plan to breed and won't depend on your dog to work livestock for your livelihood in other words - I don't see the harm if the dog is not abused. Flynn seems to be enjoying himself, anyway. It sure is a different world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Oooh, well, no offense to the obedience types but I got bored just watching that (what was not obscured by posts and people's backs, I mean). Does a dog really have to heel like that for that long? I can't fathom how that would be at all interesting to do. I prefer something like Rally where you can interact with your dog and praise and treat and generally enjoy yourself. I am not an exacting person - I like my dogs to have some personality and a mind of their own. I'm not suggesting this dog is an automan, but rather that I can't imagine enjoying myself while trying to train this. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3qo9QjnJC0 How can any normal person get a heel like THAT? After Bonnie Barry, BC herding and obedience extroadinare died from a neck injury, I have lost all hope of successfully training Joy in obedience. Bonnie was my moms best friend...and the only one who could possibly train something like that. I don't know how to train a heel like that, but I encourage you to seek out resources to assist you with this. There are a lot of books and videos that can help. Maybe try some different trainers. Let the trainers know what your goals are and if someone can't help you, you may be able to get a reference. It might take some time, but there just could be a great trainer who can really help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 You know what my take on that "staring up adoringly at the handler's face from no matter what position the dog is in" is all about? Treats. I don't know about this trainer, but many of the top obedience trainers are force trainers and do not use treats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Couldn't watch it all ... I think that is weird. I'm glad I'm not the only one that felt that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 You know what my take on that "staring up adoringly at the handler's face from no matter what position the dog is in" is all about? Treats. I don't know about this trainer, but many of the top obedience trainers are force trainers and do not use treats. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think the stylized heeling with the head facing up and the front paw prance can be trained with force methods. That's what I've heard, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mado Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Hello all . I wasn't going to comment in case I hurt someone's feelings , we don't always have the same sensitivity on this side of the pond , but seen as other posters expressed their doubts , here's my humble opinion ... Obviously the lady has a thing in her hand that the dog really wants , which is fine with me but it's still there as a powerful incentive , the show is a bit boring , like when Tamyr wants to play ball and nags me forever even after we've been at it for an hour , it actually does look as if the dog is nagging the lady and walking all over her legs which would get ME face in the mud in no time , they don't do anything much in fact ...I'm not saying I could ever do something like that (not that I feel the urge to) , but Tamyr can be "hanging on my lips" so to speak when I hold a stick or a ball , and she can pester me forever , it looks more like a trick to me than a sheperd's dog normal attitude and anyway the music is just too AWFUL for me to ever contemplate joining in such a carnival with my dog but that's another topic ;-)) And ...forgive my incompetence but my idea of a heel let's say "a la francaise" ;-), is the dog with her nose on my heel watching out for my every move and following me like a stalker , not bouncing on the side because she is distracted and "wants" something ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I'm with Mado. I could get Fergie to do that by having a half a hotdog in that clutched left hand. Heck, she comes close if I have a ball in my pocket waiting 'til we get around the corner on a ball walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I don't know a lot about obedience but I have heard that many obedience dogs get tossed because they crumble under the pressure of being force trained and not receiving any praise, and they become lackluster in their performance. Obedience is as much about style as it is about precision, as I understand it. Do you remember how Barbara Woodhouse always said she hated obedience trials because you could not so much as smile at your dog, much less praise him? I know many obedience people who have trained forced retrieves with an ear twist, so I imagine there are other compulsion methods at work too. Piper CAN and DOES do that heel, if I have a frisbee in my hand. It's amusing, but not amusing enough to be a, errm, "sport." But maybe obedience people mold dogs with those tendancies anyway. I never taught Piper to do that, she does it on her own. I could put it on a command in a nanosecond of I wanted to. I don't, because it irritates me when I am trying to walk. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 First I will say I know absolutely NOTHING about showing dogs. The way that dog was looking up at her though looked like he didn't have much choice. The distance between her hand and the leash around his neck made it look like he had to heel like that or be choked. (Not saying thats the case...it just looks like it) When I take Navi on walks, if he gets too close to my leg it really bothers me because I do tend to trip over him or have to nudge him over just a bit. I really don't see how she can walk w/ him so close to her side either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I don't know about this trainer, but many of the top obedience trainers are force trainers and do not use treats. Ok, I'll bite: what's a "force trainer" ? I understand treats (don't use 'em, but understand the concept), although I guess I thought they always came out of one's hand. They really put 'em in their *mouths*? This is all so foreign to me, but I find it fascinating in a bizarre kind of way. And I have to say I agree with Nik--that's an awfully ahort hold on that leash. Looked uncomfortable for both the dog and the handler! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Very simply,...with lots of practice, lots of time, lots of feeling. lots of frustration, even more determination and a great partner! And that does not make one a normal person but a normal person with a tremendous ability! Absolutely. I trained Bear to heel like this, because this is what they (the judges) reward in the obedience ring. We don't heel like this when we're just out and about (that looks more like the Iditarod), just for obedience competition. And yes, it looks demented, especially with the club music they overlaid in the video, but the thing is, if you want full points on the heel exercise, you have to perform in the style du jour, which currently is flashy, heads-up heeling. If you think about it, is that kind of heeling any weirder than, say, asking a dog to over a teeter-totter, or weave through upright poles? Anything can be taught, within reason, to an intelligent dog. It doesn't have to be force-trained either, or through bait-spitting. We trained with one of the top obedience guys in Canada, and the heads-up heel can be taught without aversives, clickers, excessive bait, etc. You just have to break down to your dog what it is that you want. What makes the performance transcend 'interesting' into 'creepy' is the exaggeration. And the music. Man, I hated that music! Oh, and that dog wasn't wearing a leash. It looks like that was the Utility class, which is off-leash and with no verbals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Nichols Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Modern competitive obedience is not taught with force methods. Most trainers are positive reinforcement trainers, many of them use clicker training. The attention healing is just another behavior taught through training. It's not something that is taught in one session. For competition, the handler is not permitted to have food or toys on them, nor are they permitted to have anything in their hands (other than the leash for on leash exercises). Yes, competive obedience is more stylized than general obedience you would use around the house. A dog doesn't have to heel with their head up like that even for competition, but it is a style that has evolved over the years. A dog that has their head down and just watches your leg or feet can often get left behind on a turn or other manuevers. Also, this is what the dog looks like in the ring doing that exercise. These dogs don't spend their whole life walking around like that. Lots of high level obedience dogs also do many other forms of competition. There are tons of good books and videos out there if you don't have an instructor available nearby. Check out J & J Dog Supply - www.jjdog.com Terry Arnold's books are really good & I've heard that Anne Marie Silverton's video series is good. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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