Choke chain

[jackpine]

Bucky pulls on the lead for heel (outside) so

 

my trainer told me to use a choke chain. Used correctly, it works beautifully. He showed me how to use it today at Bucky's 'lesson'.

 

My trainer told me to just put it on and hold it with a light tension to have him walk nicely beside me, and when Bucky pulls he will feel it, slow down, and walk beside me where I want him to. No need for a corrective jerk.

 

It works!

[shelb'smum]

I don't use a choke chain and a lot of people here don't either. I know there is a previous thread about this, I will see if I can find it

 

 

ETA: I would much rather use a pinch collar. I have a problem with my little 35 lb. puppy pulling. but I have found that being very very strict about leash time she catches on pretty fast and only pulls when she knows she can get away with it. she knows when she can scam.

and I have a feeling that your little man does as well.

[Root Beer]

I don't use one, either.

[GoldenCollie]

and when Bucky pulls he will feel it, slow down, and walk beside me where I want him to. No need for a corrective jerk.

 

If your dogs already a puller, he's not going to feel it and just automatically stop pulling. To be honest, if your dogs a puller, i seriously would not recommend using a chock chain. It can really damage a dogs kneck pulling into one of these things.

Personally i would be leash training the dog on a normal flat collar or even a half checker if you wish. A dog who already pulls is not going to stop with a choke chain. It's training, time and consistancy which will stop him pulling, there is no magical collars which will do this.

Personally, I think a lot of people get these collars thinking they are a 'quick-fix' to their pulling problems. The best thing to do is get a pocketfull of treats, take the dog out on an empty belly, and train him or her to walk nicely through positive methods on a flat collar. After the dog knows exactly what is expected of him (and this may take a while depending on the dog and how much your willing to train) then, you can begin introducing corrections. You can't correct a dog who doesn't know whats expected of him. It's unfair. Stick to your normal collar and use a ball or treats as a motivator for your dog, or even just your voice and plenty of praise. It's much kinder and you will only strengthen that bond between you and your dog

[shelb'smum]

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...;hl=choke+chain

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...hl=choke+chains

 

 

This last one is my favorite and I found it most helpful

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...hl=choke+chains

[smileyzookie]

I use a choke chain with Riven and it works beautifully. It is important you use it correctly though. Riven was a puller and she quit with the choke chain, so I dont know where people get it doesnt help, because for us it definately did. Normal collars do nothing, but allow her the ability to attempt to rip my arm out of its socket LOL. Although now, that we've been slacking with her, we definately cant go back to a normal collar, so for now in our new training period we're using the choke collar.

 

I do NOT leave it on her if Im crating her or taking her to doggy daycare ect.

[painted_ponies]

Thanks for posting those links to old threads. I like Becca's method on the second page of the first link. I'm all motivated to give it a try with Faith - who obviously thinks she's in training for the Iditarod the way she pulls.

 

Oh, ETA response to the OP, sorry. Choke chains seem to be one of those things that we used as a matter of course in the old days but, in my twenty year hiatus from dog training, have disappeared almost completely from the modern trainer's equipment. Like Paramite dip. My PetsMart class that Faith and I are attending doesn't allow them. Anyway, I think it's a change for the better.

[jackpine]

I don't use a choke chain and a lot of people here don't either. I know there is a previous thread about this, I will see if I can find it

ETA: I would much rather use a pinch collar. I have a problem with my little 35 lb. puppy pulling. but I have found that being very very strict about leash time she catches on pretty fast and only pulls when she knows she can get away with it. she knows when she can scam.

and I have a feeling that your little man does as well.

 

I would appreciate reading the thread on this.

 

My trainer knows all methods and works with the particular dog, does not have an absolute one way/right way for all dogs. He is that wonderful kind of trainer that has a "gift". And he knows border collies, has always had them as a preferred pet. And whenever there is an obedience trial/competition in these parts, his dogs win all the ribbons. Always. People come from all over the world here to enter their dogs in obedience trials. When Fred has one of his dogs in, everyone says...well, ok, I will try for second. His bc's always win the blue. And his bc's adore him. It is a beautiful thing to watch him work with a dog.

You could bring to Fred Primeau the most out of control dog, no matter what age, and that dog will look to Fred with: "what do you want me to do? I will do it and adore you too".

 

It seems that eveywhere you look, here where I live, so called dog trainers are advertising their services. And oh man, they all seem to have the answers. Fred never advertises and he know that the answers are never written in stone. He talks and they just seem to hear him.

 

to individual dogs and they just seems to hear him.

 

So I trust Fred with this choker chain thingy. With my BC pup at this time. The thing is, is that this is working right now but who knows, maybe a pinch collar will work better if this doesn't continue to work. I'm sure that Fred will

[jackpine]

I use a choke chain with Riven and it works beautifully. It is important you use it correctly though. Riven was a puller and she quit with the choke chain, so I dont know where people get it doesnt help, because for us it definately did. Normal collars do nothing, but allow her the ability to attempt to rip my arm out of its socket LOL. Although now, that we've been slacking with her, we definately cant go back to a normal collar, so for now in our new training period we're using the choke collar.

 

I do NOT leave it on her if Im crating her or taking her to doggy daycare ect.

 

 

atta girl, smileyzookie. You got it right. If you use it correctly, it works. And you are right, it's only for training, not for any other reason. Take that sucker off the minute you stop training.

 

My trainer said that when you hold the leash, attached to the choke chain, there is an energy that travels down the leash to the chain and right to the dog's neck. The dog recognizes that energy. So, really it's not so much the tool, it's who is working that tool that counts. But the right tools are necessary for the job to be done right.

 

and thanks.

[jackpine]

If your dogs already a puller, he's not going to feel it and just automatically stop pulling. To be honest, if your dogs a puller, i seriously would not recommend using a chock chain. It can really damage a dogs kneck pulling into one of these things.

Personally i would be leash training the dog on a normal flat collar or even a half checker if you wish. A dog who already pulls is not going to stop with a choke chain. It's training, time and consistancy which will stop him pulling, there is no magical collars which will do this.

Personally, I think a lot of people get these collars thinking they are a 'quick-fix' to their pulling problems. The best thing to do is get a pocketfull of treats, take the dog out on an empty belly, and train him or her to walk nicely through positive methods on a flat collar. After the dog knows exactly what is expected of him (and this may take a while depending on the dog and how much your willing to train) then, you can begin introducing corrections. You can't correct a dog who doesn't know whats expected of him. It's unfair. Stick to your normal collar and use a ball or treats as a motivator for your dog, or even just your voice and plenty of praise. It's much kinder and you will only strengthen that bond between you and your dog

 

 

 

Well, my dog did feel it and did stop pulling.

You cannot damage a dog's neck with a choke chain, unless you don't know how to use it properly. ummm, first you need to know how to put it on correctly.

You can do a lot more damage to a dogs neck with a flat collar.

 

no kidding.

[Maralynn]

IMO prong or pinch collars are much better than choke collars. Choke collars have been known to cause a collapsed trachea in dogs, even when used correctly. I understand what you mean about the energy, but if you've got it, a dog can feel that energy with a flat or martingale collar as well.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[jackpine]

Thanks for posting those links to old threads. I like Becca's method on the second page of the first link. I'm all motivated to give it a try with Faith - who obviously thinks she's in training for the Iditarod the way she pulls.

 

Oh, ETA response to the OP, sorry. Choke chains seem to be one of those things that we used as a matter of course in the old days but, in my twenty year hiatus from dog training, have disappeared almost completely from the modern trainer's equipment. Like Paramite dip. My PetsMart class that Faith and I are attending doesn't allow them. Anyway, I think it's a change for the better.

 

 

change is what we do as humans and is how we 'progress' But we need to know when to not through out the baby with bath water.

[jackpine]

IMO prong or pinch collars are much better than choke collars. Choke collars have been known to cause a collapsed trachea in dogs, even when used correctly. I understand what you mean about the energy, but if you've got it, a dog can feel that energy with a flat or martingale collar as well.

 

Just my 2 cents...

 

 

I will try a pinch collar if it is necessary. And I do agree with your last statement. It's the energy that you project that is what the dog really responds to. Choke chains, prong collers, etc, are only props.

 

Cesar Millan (bad word here, I guess, haha) talks about this energy and tries to explain it.

 

I think he is right on.

 

 

I've been a wolf researcher for a few years. I lived with a wolf biologist (field) for a while. They are a particular breed, (wolf biologists). They observe wolves in the wild. Somehow I can understand wolf behavior much easier that I can understand dog behaviour. Why" Because we can never expect a wolf to behave and conform to our wishes.

A dog is a whole different issue.

 

They (dogs) have the instincts of wolves. A wolf can never be a pet, however. Please, don't ever get a wolf/hybrid!

 

But because I understand the behaviour of wolves, maybe this may help me understand the instincts of my dog. I certainly understand pack behaviour and know that my pup is and must be, the omega in my family and needs to be thus to be happy and fulfilled.

[Root Beer]

My question to those of you who are "sending energy down the leash into the choke chain" is this - how do you transition that to walking on a loose leash on a buckle collar?

 

I've heard of many dogs that are trained with choke chains that become "ringwise". They know when the chain is on and walk on the loose leash then, but pull when the chain is removed. I'm not saying that happens every time, but it does happen.

 

I prefer to teach the dog in the equipment (buckle collar) that I want him to walk in when training is finished. It can be done.

[jackpine]

Thanks for posting those links to old threads. I like Becca's method on the second page of the first link. I'm all motivated to give it a try with Faith - who obviously thinks she's in training for the Iditarod the way she pulls.

 

Oh, ETA response to the OP, sorry. Choke chains seem to be one of those things that we used as a matter of course in the old days but, in my twenty year hiatus from dog training, have disappeared almost completely from the modern trainer's equipment. Like Paramite dip. My PetsMart class that Faith and I are attending doesn't allow them. Anyway, I think it's a change for the better.

 

 

I don't agree that the so called 'new methods' are a change for the better.

 

Methods are only that, what the majority who can't, do. Good trainers are beyond strict method.

 

For me, I would avoid any "petsmark" so called training classes.

[jackpine]

My question to those of you who are "sending energy down the leash into the choke chain" is this - how do you transition that to walking on a loose leash on a buckle collar?

 

How do you define energy down the leash to the collar? haha. I don't know. I think it might be easier with a choke chain than a buckie collar but I don't know why this is That energy you talk about is all about energy. Your energy transmits to the dog your dog will pick it up. Those tools you use just give you more confidence to project that energy. Allow you to Be more confident and project that confidence. Ultimately, you don't need collars or anyhing for that matter. If you know who you are and who your dog is, with conviction and total confidence, then your dog will respond accordingly.

 

You are alpha and they are less than. There is no question about this. If you know this, then they know this. They then pick this up and respond accordingly.

 

It's really beautiful how it works in the wild. We humans screw it all up. We humans have all these issues. Our problem is that we 'think', we 'rationalize'. Dogs don't do this like we do. All your dog wants is for you to know who you are and to believe it. Then they can just relax and happily follow.

 

 

I've heard of many dogs that are trained with choke chains that become "ringwise". They know when the chain is on and walk on the loose leash then, but pull when the chain is removed. I'm not saying that happens every time, but it does happen.

 

 

maybe so.

 

I prefer to teach the dog in the equipment (buckle collar) that I want him to walk in when training is finished. It can be done.

[Root Beer]

You are alpha and they are less than. There is no question about this. If you know this, then they know this. They then pick this up and respond accordingly.

 

It's really beautiful how it works in the wild. We humans screw it all up. We humans have all these issues. Our problem is that we 'think', we 'rationalize'. Dogs don't do this like we do. All your dog wants is for you to know who you are and to believe it. Then they can just relax and happily follow.

 

The idea that we must dominate our dogs is a theory. It works for some people and their dogs and it does not work with others. It is not a universal law.

 

I am not saying that I consider my dog my equal - not by a long shot - but I simply don't relate to my dogs as ALPHA!!! I'm not saying that you shouldn't, just that it is not a universal. There are other methods of managing and training a pack of dogs. (Edited to clarify - the large all-cap ALPHA is to emphasize regarding being alpha as "the dog is less", not simply as being the leader.)

 

My dogs actually enjoy having active participation in the decisions that I make for them. Sure, there are times when I make the decisions for the group, or for an individual dog, especially when it's a matter of safety.

 

But when it comes to things like loose leash walking, I enjoy the process of teaching my dog to use his brain to figure out what I want him to do, and then to put that behavior on cue. I love seeing the light go on in the dog's eyes when he hits upon what I'm looking for. I just don't see the use of a choke chain cultivating that kind of enthusiasm for participating with me in the process of training - and that is something that I value very highly in my relationship with my dogs.

 

I can see why using positive methods to train loose leash walking wouldn't appeal to some folks, just as training it with a choke chain doesn't suit me at all.

[Maralynn]

I've been a wolf researcher for a few years. I lived with a wolf biologist (field) for a while. They are a particular breed, (wolf biologists). They observe wolves in the wild. Somehow I can understand wolf behavior much easier that I can understand dog behaviour. Why" Because we can never expect a wolf to behave and conform to our wishes.

A dog is a whole different issue.

 

They (dogs) have the instincts of wolves. A wolf can never be a pet, however. Please, don't ever get a wolf/hybrid!

 

But because I understand the behaviour of wolves, maybe this may help me understand the instincts of my dog. I certainly understand pack behaviour and know that my pup is and must be, the omega in my family and needs to be thus to be happy and fulfilled.

 

But what does a choke collar have to do with being a leader? I'm not quite getting what point you're trying to make. And your dog is still a puppy, right? The problem with teaching behaviors only with cumpulsory methods is that the dog is doing what he has to do rather than doing it because it's highly rewarding to him. Your dog will still do what you want him to, but is doing it because he has to, not because he's excited to.

 

And the alpha wolf doesn't constantly go around proving they are the alpha, they do it more so by they're pressence. It more who they are than what they do. The only ones who they have to prove themselves to are the pack members with pushy dominent characteristics. And then the leader puts him in his place and continues on with life. Simple.

 

My question to those of you who are "sending energy down the leash into the choke chain" is this - how do you transition that to walking on a loose leash on a buckle collar?

 

That is a good question. It sounds like jackpine is keeping the collar and leash tight - which will only teach a dog to pull against it. For me what it means is pretty much my attitude while I'm working with a dog. Example - I was taking a relative's young lab for a walk. He was a pull-every-which-way-and-try-to-smell-it-all dog. In a quarter mile I had him walking pretty much at heel on a loose leash. I was using a martingale collar. I used a few mild leash corrections, along with direction and speed changes. But it was like he knew someone was in charge and responded accordingly. He was still happy-go-lucky, but wasn't pulling my arm off anymore. But when someone else took over he turned back into hyper dog in a pulling competition.

 

I used a prong collar with Kipp to work on correcting an obsessive behavior - cat chasing/nipping. I really liked it as it took me out of the correction picture. He went into "cat" mode, I said "that'll do" (which he understood), He didn't come, I used the collar and attached leash to correct him without saying a word. I repeated "that'll do" which he then came to and was rewarded for. Not listening = ouch! Listening=treats and praise!

 

For training, I've started doing "drive" work with him. We're working on heel now, and it's fun to watch him working to figure out how to get his ball reward

[Bo Peep]

I have always used a choke chain on all my dogs. I prefer prong. Used properly, one quick snap at the right time is most helpful. I am starting a class at Petsmart with a very strong 6 month old dog that is 40 pounds already. I don't have the strenght I used to have and she wants a flat buckle. I've tried and he doesn't respond to that. We'll see how it goes. I'll tell you one thing. My other dogs were awful until you put the choke on, then they behaved like angels. Somehow they knew the difference, so maybe there is something to training with a flat collar. You CAN teach an old handler new tricks.

[Tassie]

Personally I agree with Kristine and Maralynn. I started training my first two on a check chain (knew no better), but my current two have been trained on flat collar, and I'm happy with the results. I just love to see the dogs figuring out how to "make good things happen", and their excitement and satisfaction when they do. I like the mottos - "train with brains, not with brawn" - and "let the dog do the work" - if the dog has to work to figure something out, likely s/he will retain it better, and be willing to learn more.

 

I don't see my relationship with my dogs in terms of some sort of power struggle. I like to think there is mutual respect, in the context of a benevolent dictatorship. But hey - that's just another theory. I just know what I'm comfortable with, and what works for me and the dogs.

[BCjetta]

I used a choke chain with our first dog (part of that reason was so there was no way she could freak out and slip out of the collar). It worked well on her. We only used it when walking, in the house her regular collar was on. When I got my BC, I got a choke chain when she got a bit bigger but it just never felt right using it on her. I have a martingale collar which felt much better and now have a gentle leader becuase no matter what type of collar she wears, if she pulls she coughs. On the gentle leader, there is no pressure on her neck.

[Dixie_Girl]

Well, I really like the method taught to me by an experienced BC handler/trainer when I got Jackson. It was soooo simple and I didn't have to get any special collars. You take the dog to a quiet place(in my case the BY.)Get a plastic rake, I like the ones that really fan out! Put dog in a sit, gather the leash up just tight enough so there is no preasure on the dog, but leaves minamal room to move. Hold lead in one hand, rake in the other, give command, heel and start walking. Have rake ready to place in front of dog if he moves past your leg. Try not to touch dog with rake. You don't want him afraid of the rake, it is simply a tool to keep him from moving forward. Make several short walks and stops. It worked with Jackson beautifully, Skip was a little harder, but he did get it and it was better than his floppy fish on the floor act he had done when first leashed! LOL

[WyoBC]

I'll have to try that Linda. That sounds great. Why didn't I think of that? Black Jack isn't a bad puller just light tension on the leash when we're out at the park. But I'm working with him with a flat collar. Just a few corrections and we're off walking.

 

Well, I really like the method taught to me by an experienced BC handler/trainer when I got Jackson. It was soooo simple and I didn't have to get any special collars. You take the dog to a quiet place(in my case the BY.)Get a plastic rake, I like the ones that really fan out! Put dog in a sit, gather the leash up just tight enough so there is no preasure on the dog, but leaves minamal room to move. Hold lead in one hand, rake in the other, give command, heel and start walking. Have rake ready to place in front of dog if he moves past your leg. Try not to touch dog with rake. You don't want him afraid of the rake, it is simply a tool to keep him from moving forward. Make several short walks and stops. It worked with Jackson beautifully, Skip was a little harder, but he did get it and it was better than his floppy fish on the floor act he had done when first leashed! LOL

 

I don't think anyone should use a choke collar, if you use it right or not. (but that's just me anyway) I think you should be able to teach them without having to use force. I like trying to find ways of teaching "with" them like Linda did. Not making them listen with a choke collar. That will only make them not want to listen more IMO.

[GoldenCollie]

Well, my dog did feel it and did stop pulling.

You cannot damage a dog's neck with a choke chain, unless you don't know how to use it properly. ummm, first you need to know how to put it on correctly.

You can do a lot more damage to a dogs neck with a flat collar.

 

Firstly, YES you can damage a dogs kneck with a chock chain. Unless you are experienced and know exactly what you are doing and how to train with it, then yes, there is a high chance the dogs kneck can be damaged and will be damaged, even if the damage is very subtle and cannot be seen.

And you certainly cannot do MORE damage with a flat collar.. Can i ask how on earth you came to that conclusion? Unless someone was constinuously jerking and swinging their dog all over the place using a flat collar, its not going to cause the dog MORE damage than a choke chain.. Thats utter bollox! Many problems arise from dogs 'choking' themselfs by wearing these collars. You only have to ask vetinary practices how many injury cases they see related to choke chains every year and it becomes clear that these devices are dangerous when used incorrectly. Even when used correctly, i still don't like them. Why on earth would you want to slip a collar on to your dog which can pull so tightly around his kneck it could 'choke' him......

[painted_ponies]

Methods are only that, what the majority who can't, do. Good trainers are beyond strict method.

 

For me, I would avoid any "petsmark" so called training classes.

 

I heartily agree that blind adherence to the methods of another is generally a recipe for disaster. If that's what you meant.

 

I'm curious - why so snippy about PetsMart? I'll admit, I signed up mainly for the opportunity to socialize Faith, and there have been a few things we've either had to modify or abstain from altogether - but I've learned some good stuff too.

 

Anyway I love what Becca had to say on the first linked thread:

The thing with Border collies is that you need to teach WHAT you want them to do, rather than use all these devices to thwart their impulses - it just turns into a big battle with each side raising the stakes every time something changes - or you get dependent on the device to have a decent time with your dog.

 

It's a little too long to put on a T-shirt, but I really like that philosophy.