working on a better "down"

[sandra s.]

Since we're still on sheep withdrawal (lambing break), I'm trying to work on Kessie's "down" in the meantime. She reacts much, much more to my body language than to what I say, which is fine in every day life but stinks during sheep lessons when I'm busy tripping over my own two feet.

Our trainer's opinion is that she should stop and lie down anywhere, at any time, regardless of balance, at the second I tell her to. So I'm trying to get her to lie down in situations where she normally wouldn't. (For example, if I'm walking next to her and say "lie down", but keep walking myself, she finds it nearly impossible to stop).

 

Sometimes she stops...and lowers herself s-l-o-w-l-y towards the ground (it looks hilarious). Would you praise her for stopping at all (which is hard for her in some situations) or would you remind her that you asked for a "DOWN", not a helium butt hover?

 

And do you think using a clicker (off the sheep, of course) would help in teaching a faster reaction (she does know quite well what "down" means)?

 

Any tips for exercises are welcome as well .

[bailey44]

Please feel free to post back and say "Duh! Of COURSE I do!" but I was wondering if you do the "lean in" when you put her in a down. I had a hover butt from the beginning--totally my fault because I'm a loser inexperienced trainer and I was putting my arm out and saying very sl-o-wl-y while I move my arm down, "d--o-w--n." So I had this clever dog who thought, "Well, this knucklehead wants me to lie down very slowly, whatever " So then I learned all about taking back your space and how well dogs react to this and started leaning into her quickly and saying down in a more crisp way and boom! she went down like a stone.

 

Now when we are playing no matter how far away she is from me and getting lazy with down, I move my upper body and lean in and she responds.

 

Charlene

[Moss]

I have similar trouble with one of my working sheep dogs, Moss. I have had conflicting advice on the problem though. My trainer (a world renowed sheepdog trainer and triallist) says that when I tell Moss to lie down, he should lie down - whenever and wherever, although of course it is easier initially to get your dog to lie down at the point of balance so he/she knows the sheep won't escape. My boyfriend (who has been a shepherd for many years) prefers a dog to remain on his feet - even at a lie down command. He likes the dog to stand still of course, but not actually to lie flat. I think Moss may be confused between the two - and sometimes lies really slowly LOL!

 

Sorry - that is no help!

 

I look forward to other (more helpful!) replies.

[kelpiegirl]

This is very near and dear to me these days. My girl has been slow to down for me. She would, eventually down, but then it got to the point that she waited for me to enforce the down (go up to her). I finally got, that she needed to down when I asked, and if she didn't (slow, or eat grass, or avoid otherwise), I had to enforce it without saying another word. I always make sure she hears me before I enforce. Enforcing to her is getting right into her face, and pushing her off the sheep. She is strong willed. I followed through with this recently, and the difference, the complete difference in her work was incredible.

A lot of it is respect. I was always told this, but never truly grasped it, until now.

Julie

 

Since we're still on sheep withdrawal (lambing break), I'm trying to work on Kessie's "down" in the meantime. She reacts much, much more to my body language than to what I say, which is fine in every day life but stinks during sheep lessons when I'm busy tripping over my own two feet.

Our trainer's opinion is that she should stop and lie down anywhere, at any time, regardless of balance, at the second I tell her to. So I'm trying to get her to lie down in situations where she normally wouldn't. (For example, if I'm walking next to her and say "lie down", but keep walking myself, she finds it nearly impossible to stop).

 

Sometimes she stops...and lowers herself s-l-o-w-l-y towards the ground (it looks hilarious). Would you praise her for stopping at all (which is hard for her in some situations) or would you remind her that you asked for a "DOWN", not a helium butt hover?

 

And do you think using a clicker (off the sheep, of course) would help in teaching a faster reaction (she does know quite well what "down" means)?

 

Any tips for exercises are welcome as well .

[nancy in AZ]

Sandra the good thing about clicker training is there is little ambiguity on exactly what action or behavior is being rewarded. Typically, especially for a very food motivated dog, your dog will start offering behaviors to see what elicits the reward. Once Kessie finds out that a truly prone position is what earns the reward, she will begin to offer it up. By the way, Kit does the very same thing. I put her in a down when I'm bringing the food bowl and she'll "hover" for just an instant until she realizes her reward is earned only with the true down. Just curious though, do any of you who are experienced with working stock know of any reason clicker training might be incompatible?

 

ETA: make that a dog who is trained to work stock. I didn't mean to imply it should be used for actual training on stock.

[sandra s.]

Thanks for answering, everyone! I keep getting kicked off the boards today (internet trouble), so I might be slow to respond...let's see if it works now!

 

Now when we are playing no matter how far away she is from me and getting lazy with down, I move my upper body and lean in and she responds.

 

She does that pretty well, but if I don't use so much body language, she doesn't respond so well. I suppose I should have time to lean in, but at our last lesson the sheep were pretty "lively" and I was too busy to lean towards Kessie, which she took as an invitation to ignore me completely...so I think I might be using too much body language rather than not enough.

 

A lot of it is respect.

 

Exactly! She does hear me on the sheep, I think. She just doesn't listen. Not that I can blame her, but it makes things difficult... I'm trying not to let her blow me off in any situation anymore.

 

The thing with her is that she is so bloody hard-headed on one side (only with sheep, though) and so soft on the other. If I correct her too strongly during a game she loses a lot of confidence at once. So maybe just pushing her butt down without a word might be better than a verbal correction...have to give it a try!

 

The reason I asked about the clicker is that she has a very pragmatig attitude about it . She knows very well if it's there or not, and if there's anything to gain by offering clickable behaviour. I'm sure she wouldn't even be thinking about treats on sheep, so I suspect she wouldn't bother about the behaviour either.

[kajarrel]

I think the "down" should mean what you want it to mean. If they're doing what you want, I don't see that this indicates any lack of respect (to be quite frank, I don't worry about respect - I know my dogs respect me).

 

I personally don't enforce a complete down on sheep but I do want my dogs to stop and face the sheep (either up or down) when I say down. It's probably due to my failure to know exactly where and when they need to down but I count on my dogs to know whether to be "up" or "down" on the down command and expect them to act in the spirit of the command. If I want them to be truly "down", I give a second down (assuming that they weren't completely down the first time). Keep in mind that I'm not an expert trainer, nor do I play one on TV

 

I'm trying not to let her blow me off in any situation anymore.

Are you sure you're right?

 

Kim

[stockdogranch]

I am one of those who believes "lie down" means just that, immediately, whenever, wherever...and "stand" means just what it says, too. I think that once a dog knows lie down and does it when asked, then teaching a stand on stock is a great thing. I know that a lot of handlers say "lie down," but will tell you that they really don't mean for the dog to do that--they want a stand or a pause or whatever. How is the dog to make sense of that? Because there will be times when the handler really *does* want the dog to actually lie down. Then people get angry at the dog for "blowing them off." But if "lie down" only means to lie down *sometimes,* seems to me that's pretty confusing, and basically, not fair to the dog.

 

The main thing to me is 100% consistency--in whatever you're teaching the dog to do. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Look at things from the dog's point of view--what makes sense to the dog and what doesn't? But whatever you're teaching, I wouldn't even ask for it unless you're in a position to enforce it.

 

And, as Julie said, a lot of getting the dog to lie down whenever, wherever, has a lot to do with respect and can go a long way toward moving the rest of your training along. As for clickers, I know virtually nothing about them, other than all my dogs (and students' dogs, too) lie down when asked, and we've never even seen a clicker. I do have a basic concept of how they work, and it seems like they just add an intermediate step to a pretty simple process,

Anna

[kajarrel]

I've been thinking about this and feel that enforcing a "wrong" command can erode respect. Respect does not = fear. Respect, IMHO, comes from the working relationship (trust/partnership) not by strict adherence to commands (althought this is part of it - an outgrowth of respect). I apologize if this is getting a little off-track or abstract . . .

 

Kim

[sandra s.]

I've been thinking about this and feel that enforcing a "wrong" command can erode respect. Respect does not = fear. Respect, IMHO, comes from the working relationship (trust/partnership) not by strict adherence to commands (althought this is part of it - an outgrowth of respect). I apologize if this is getting a little off-track . . .

 

Kim

 

Yes, I think this is where her lack of respect while working (or OUR lack of a "working relationship") comes from. Why should she trust me when I let the sheep get away?

[stockdogranch]

Kim: I'm not sure what you mean by a "wrong" command. Can you elaborate? If you mean downing the dog off balance or something of that nature, that's not "wrong," maybe just not approproiate for where the dog is in its training. Either way, if you gave the command, then how can it be "wrong"? And I don't understand how *fear* got into this...of course, fear does not = respect...

 

Sandra: Sometimes the dog needs to learn that you *want* the sheep to "get away"--for instance, when I turn them out of their nighttime pen into the pasture, they tend to go out running, at least the lambs do, with moms following. I don't always want the dog to run round and head them, in fact, I find that irritating a great deal of the time. Young dogs can have a hard time grasping this concept at first, but I feel it's an important one for them to learn. If I tell them to down, they should down. If I say nothing, then it's OK to go head them,

Anna

[kelpiegirl]

My dog doesn't fear me. She knows (now, for the most part;)) that when I ask for something I mean it, otherwise, she loses her sheep. It it that simple. When she does what I ask (and I don't ask for more than I know she can give me) she gets to keep working. The thing is, in a very keen dog, you give an inch, and they take a yard. Some dogs just do what you would like them to do, other dogs need to learn that. And, you don't have to be punitive or harbor ill will. Pressure comes from many directions. If a dog can't take a bit of pressure (age appropriate) from the handler/farmer, and bounce back from it, then he has a long tough road to hoe. It took me months to learn this...

Julie

 

Kim: I'm not sure what you mean by a "wrong" command. Can you elaborate? If you mean downing the dog off balance or something of that nature, that's not "wrong," maybe just not approproiate for where the dog is in its training. Either way, if you gave the command, then how can it be "wrong"? And I don't understand how *fear* got into this...of course, fear does not = respect...

 

Sandra: Sometimes the dog needs to learn that you *want* the sheep to "get away"--for instance, when I turn them out of their nighttime pen into the pasture, they tend to go out running, at least the lambs do, with moms following. I don't always want the dog to run round and head them, in fact, I find that irritating a great deal of the time. Young dogs can have a hard time grasping this concept at first, but I feel it's an important one for them to learn. If I tell them to down, they should down. If I say nothing, then it's OK to go head them,

Anna

[sandra s.]

Sandra: Sometimes the dog needs to learn that you *want* the sheep to "get away"

 

I agree, but at this very early stage, I'm not all that sure what I want at most moments, and I think she knows that very well.

 

I hope we can go back to taking lessons soon. The last lesson was in the middle of end-of-semester stress and my head was all over the place, but the trainer actually said we improved...wish I had noticed that too . I can't wait to take another (hopefully clearer!) look at what we can (or can't) actually do by now!

Until then, I don't think there's much we can do except work on the d*mn down...(though we did "herd" three escaped chickens back through the hole in their fence yesterday ).

[kajarrel]

Anna, I had to think a few minutes about your question. The wrong command can mean many things - it can mean making a dog pressure the sheep too much so that they fight or split, it can mean lying the dog down so that the sheep run away (when that was not your intent), etc. But in reading your messages (and my second sentence), I think I expect something different from my dogs than you do - I'm teaching/asking them not to follow my commands to the letter but to have the sheep do something or to act in a certain way in response to my commands. My focus is the end result, not in how it's achieved.

 

BTW, I'm discussing this . . . I'm not presenting what I say as "fact". This is how I work/train my dogs. But as I'm trying to formulate my answers, I'm also realizing that so much of what I do is "unconscious" - sort of like driving a standard car.

 

Kim

[kajarrel]

My dog doesn't fear me. She knows (now, for the most part;)) that when I ask for something I mean it, otherwise, she loses her sheep. It it that simple. When she does what I ask (and I don't ask for more than I know she can give me) she gets to keep working.

 

That's great, Julie. Fear was probably a poor choice of words. Try "compulsion". But to my other point, I don't want a dog that obeys, I want a dog that thinks and feels - I question whether this can be achieved by having the dog, through whatever means, strictly obey commands. Kim

[stockdogranch]

I question whether this can be achieved by having the dog, through whatever means, strictly obey commands.

 

Ahhh, but there's a difference between doing as I ask when I ask, and "strictly obeying commands," the implication of which is that the dog *never* thinks for itself. What I am saying is that there are plenty of times/situations where I need the dog to think for itself, and what I train for (given the right genetics, of course) is that the dog learn to recognize those situations and decide/recognize when it needs to do the thinking vs. when I am doing the thinking. I maintain that if you train a dog up so that it has that kind of decision making ability, it's far from "strictly obeying commands."

 

But in order to get a dog to do that level of thinking, it first has to understand that when I ask it to do something, that something needs to be done. You have to have the basics down before you can move on to the more advanced things which require a foundation in the basics. An analogy: I also teach academic writing at a university. Students need to learn the fundamentals of writing--sentence structure, etc. They need to know the rules and how they operate before they are sophisticated enough to bend them. So a student needs to fully understand what a sentence fragment is and know how to avoid making them before s/he can go on to intentionally write a fragment for stylistic purposes. (Ok, so now I'm getting really abstract)

 

I think I am reading two different things here: the first

I'm teaching/asking them not to follow my commands to the letter but to have the sheep do something or to act in a certain way in response to my commands.

sounds like you *do* expect the dog to take the command given, so that the stock react the way you want. But the second

My focus is the end result, not in how it's achieved.

almost sounds as if, say, you give a flank, the dog doesn't take it, but the stock go where you wanted, anyway, and that's Ok with you.

 

It's been a very long day, and my brain is a bit fried--am I reading this right?

 

Anna

[kelpiegirl]

I think I am thinking along the same lines as Anna. In an older, more experienced dog, you do need a measure of the dog being able to read just the sheep, knowing what job he has to do. But, in a young dog like Sandra's and mine, and if they are very keen, they have a tendency to want to work the sheep without your input. That is a very slippery slope, as I learned. We had hit a wall, and I had been told that we needed to work on our working relationship- that is, require that she do what I ask and when- and NOT yell, or be punitive about it, simply take away the sheep. The dog has to give you the reins when asked.

I am a big proponent of dogs who can just "do it", but I also, when asking for a lie down, know now, that I have to have that- or we can't progress to the harder stuff.

Julie

[sandra s.]

Are you sure you're right?

 

Sorry, meant to answer that...I said I'm "trying", and I'm pretty sure about that, yes. I'm also sure that I'll never be 100% consistent, as it's not my nature to be 100% anything, but she's normally very cooperative in sheepless situations so it's easier than it sounds.

 

This is a very interesting discussion, since I wondered about it too ("following commands" vs "getting the job done somehow"). The latter suits me a lot better, but our trainer thinks the other way around. The way you explain it, ie "beginner dogs" compared to dogs who have a clear notion of what to do, makes a lot of sense.

 

As for pushing the dog off the sheep: After our last lesson, the trainer actually recommended that to me as well, but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. I wonder if it can be done with Kessie. It would be just like her to go all limp and "trusting" and leave me the choice of stopping, walking over her, or carrying her away . I could try dragging her off by her collar, if that would still be as effective or impressive to her.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Sandra, I'm a novice, but so far I have learned that the neccessity of an absolute down depends on who you're learning from. It's a bit in my nature to insist on it, perhaps because I trained for competitive obedience with my first dog, and I still think that overall (in life), it's a good thing to have an immediate down.

 

But I've been told, and have come to learn that the down on sheep is both good and bad. It's good because it takes usually more pressure off the sheep than just a stop, and it's also usually easier for most dogs to NOT MOVE while down, whereas an absolute stop on their feet seems to be much harder for most dogs (they may have a tendency to keep moving, step-by-step). The down is a drawback because when the dog gets up (even if it gets up slowly), it is often more disturbing to the sheep than a standing dog, even one just starting to move forward. My dogs generally pop up, which tends to startle the sheep; it's an issue I'm constantly working on (getting them to stand up more slowly/thoughtfully). I'm also trying to work on getting a standing stop, but for now the down is better for us.

 

My instructor has a dog that almost never lies down (he and I have had this same conversation ), but it has not been a detriment at all; she is top-class. For example, she's the dog he uses her most often with our lessons, and she is very highly ranked in our Handler's Association points rankings.

 

And generalizing this to overall obedience to commands (versus doing the job right)...I haven't made up my mind on that yet. Yesterday I was practicing driving with one of them; I stink at it. The sheep started going off line to the left, so I needed to flank the dog a bit left to correct them. So I told her "away." Well, DUH--wrong direction. Fortunately for me, she went to the left, both the direction and distance I wanted to fix the line. I guess she had figured out the line I was trying to take. But I got some teasing from my instructor, since the dog didn't take my flank. It was a good thing she didn't though, because if she'd gone "away," the sheep would almost certainly have ended up in an area with a big old rock wall and trees--a pretty tough place to pull them from.

 

My instructor has said to me on more than one occasion--if you're going to insist on absolute obedience from your dog, you'd better make sure you know sheep REALLY really well!

[sandra s.]

Thanks for all the interesting input!

 

My instructor has said to me on more than one occasion--if you're going to insist on absolute obedience from your dog, you'd better make sure you know sheep REALLY really well!

 

That makes a h*ll of a lot of sense! So far we haven't arrived at that point where each of us has a different idea about how to arrive at a goal...because, embarrassingly, we're not working towards the same goal (yet).

 

Kessie wants to pack those sheep neatly into a corner and look at them for the rest of the day. She manages to do that, too (the packing into the corner, I mean). I (being the saboteur of all her work) want them out in the field and moving. But, yes, we've already had situations where I corrected her for something and ended up being "corrected" myself, because she was doing the right thing and I was too **** to see it!

 

But, since everyone agrees that a good "down" is handy, I'll definitely try to get that right and stop the hovering...

She did pretty well today, when we tried it without distractions for a change. Not many hovers. By now, she has also fully understood that "lie down" means the same as the German "Platz!". (Try yelling that a hundred times in a row and staying in a good friendly mood ).

[kelpiegirl]

Your posts remind me more and more of my Lucy. Lucy has been doing lessons now for some time. She is a header (I suspect Kessie is too), and she wants all control all the time. I recently had to establish that down means down. Our most recent lesson, dang if she didn't down (99% of the time) when I asked, and fast. I did ask for some downs on the fly, and was reminded not too- that is real hard for a young dog. So, I was again able to down her as she fetched the sheep to me- this is big I tell ya! She always has her eye on the head. We still have a long way to go, but there are really good glimmers here and there, that will show up and make you give a thumbs up. Sheepwork is really a triad- the sheep at the apex and the two other being the dog and you. Each one has to be given consideration when training a green dog. The experienced trainers already know the triad- we newbies keep forgetting...

But, you will get there- you just need lots of leg work.

 

Thanks for all the interesting input!

That makes a h*ll of a lot of sense! So far we haven't arrived at that point where each of us has a different idea about how to arrive at a goal...because, embarrassingly, we're not working towards the same goal (yet).

 

Kessie wants to pack those sheep neatly into a corner and look at them for the rest of the day. She manages to do that, too (the packing into the corner, I mean). I (being the saboteur of all her work) want them out in the field and moving. But, yes, we've already had situations where I corrected her for something and ended up being "corrected" myself, because she was doing the right thing and I was too **** to see it!

 

But, since everyone agrees that a good "down" is handy, I'll definitely try to get that right and stop the hovering...

She did pretty well today, when we tried it without distractions for a change. Not many hovers. By now, she has also fully understood that "lie down" means the same as the German "Platz!". (Try yelling that a hundred times in a row and staying in a good friendly mood ).

[sandra s.]

She might be trying to head...that would explain some of her weird (to me!) behaviour . Thanks for the encouragement! .

 

To any lurkers considering giving this a try: It's not as bad and hopeless as I'm making it sound here, no no no! It's great fun and I can't wait to be back! I do like the fact that she's so protective of her little flock, but still, it's been a month at least ...