Question on physical punishment

[Pippin's person]

In folks' responses to the issue of dangerously chasing cats (or chickens), several people mentioned physical punishment. Besides scruff shaking, what do you actually do when you physically punish a dog?

[fooshuman]

In folks' responses to the issue of dangerously chasing cats (or chickens), several people mentioned physical punishment. Besides scruff shaking, what do you actually do when you physically punish a dog?

 

I believe it has to do with showing you as alpha don't approve of an action. Remember when most folks here talk about physical punishment it isn't "beating" the dog, it is a swift and stern correction.

[smileyzookie]

The most physical I get is if Riven isnt listening, I'll swat her on the bum. Somewhere between a tap and a slap force wise. Just enough to get her attention, and then she already knows without me saying anything that her (usually ignoring) behavior is unacceptable. Its pretty much the same slap I do when Im playing with her, its just that she knows my energy and it isnt playful at that time.

[Pearse]

In folks' responses to the issue of dangerously chasing cats (or chickens), several people mentioned physical punishment. Besides scruff shaking, what do you actually do when you physically punish a dog?

 

 

You don't.

 

Physically punish a dog that is, because it does no good.

 

A physical correction is sometimes required and the difference is in the timing.

 

A punishment occurs after the fact. Most times a dog will not know why it is being punished. A correction is best applied to prevent an undesired behavior but needs to be timed just right or you end up preventing something else entirely.

 

So, to stop your dog chasing your cats or chickens, you need to set it up so that you can catch him when he makes the decision to chase the cat or the chicken and then make that decision very uncomfortable. Once he's already chased the cat around the yard a few times, he's had his positive reward (cat chasing) and it's too late.

 

And, these are Border Collies so one good cat/chicken chase undoes weeks of training not to chase cats and chickens, so until he can lie in the yard while a flock of chickens dances on his head while the cat bats his tail around, he needs to not be out of your sight while there are cats and chickens around.

 

Pearse

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You want something will startle the dog in the act, as Pearse mentioned. These can include verbal corrections, physical restraints like long lines, body blocks, and, my favorite, Things Falling From the Sky. Your goal is not to have the dog go, "YIKES!" and stop thinking, but go "What?" and look to you for further suggestion (if needed). If the goal is to just stop a behavior (like chicken chasing), I'll just say "That's enough" in my normal voice after I've got the dog's attention. It is probably going to be necessary to repeat the correction/request until you've got the level of response you are looking for, since the first few times you may only get a momentary pause.

[bc friend]

I have NEVER beaten or been physically abusive to my dogs. I have grabbed by the scruff and shook, swatted open handed on the bum, squirted a vinegar water bottle at, thrown things near (but not at) my dogs for things such as cat chasing. It is not so much a punishment but a negative reinforcement/reminder that the particular action the dog is taking is not acceptable.

[MaggieDog]

I'd consider electric shock a variety of physical punishment, especially for crittering.

 

And btw 'punishment' technically means doing something to decrease a behavior and should be done w/in 1 second of the undesirable behavior. A correction is still punishment if you use the behaviorist definition.

[smileyzookie]

bcfriend, I completely agree with that.

[Lunar]

I've given Oreo and Zoe a swat on the bum at times for doing something bad - enough to startle them. It's more of a "get their attention and let them know I'm not liking what they're doing" than any kind of "punishment". I don't think I've ever had to do a scruff shake on either of them, though I would if they showed any kind of aggression towards the kitties or family members. When Oreo was a wee pup I would tap her on the nose for biting too hard - she quickly learned to be very gentle with those puppy teeth.

 

Zeeke is another whole issue. Any kind of physical correction (shake or swat) just causes him to get angry in return. So with him I'm more likely to do body-blocks and such, it works much better. Hubby does do scruff shakes for his biting/growling/chasing (which only works from hubby, I don't do it!). He's a special case though.

[SincereArtisan]

I've swatted them on the bum to get their attention. I've swooped down and pulled them out of something--eating trash, resource guarding a bowl, food, etc--by their scruff and shaken them a couple times all the while bellowing "NOOOO BAD DOG!!!" in the "voice of death." I've run up on them stomping really hard to startle them back from something they're not supposed to be doing/sniffing/licking to reinforce 'leavit!'. I've done the long-lead thing when Rune had a problem chasing cats, and I'd step on it to bring her up short. I've thrown penny bottles--basially empty plastic drink bottles with a few pennies. (Yes, sometimes it may boink off them, but it doesn't hurt them so much as it startles the daylights out of them. Actually, after I left one lying about it got converted into the worlds most awesome toy that drives mom nuts....so, didn't work too well after that.) And I've used those air cans for cleaning dust....they were originally for the cats, but Idolon took a dislike to the hissy noise, so now just uttering 'psssst!' gets her AND the cats to wise up.

 

But the trick is, catching them IN the act so the associate it correctly. Also, some dogs can't take this sort of physical punishment. They're too soft, too reactive, and some have hidden pasts and you just don't know what such an action will bring about response-wise. Know your dog before you pick your punishment.

[smileyzookie]

Sorry one more thing to follow up on what SincereArtisan said. Riven has SA and is VERY skittish around strangers ect. The ONLY time I can swat or use a raised voice at her is outside when her selective hearing engages. (dogs generally seem to set that off for her, then I play doctor and engage complete hearing again lol) But seriously, I cant say anything overly stern to her unless she's ignoring me or she just goes downhill.

[Eileen Stein]

Great post, Pearse.

 

And btw 'punishment' technically means doing something to decrease a behavior and should be done w/in 1 second of the undesirable behavior. A correction is still punishment if you use the behaviorist definition.

 

True in behaviorist terminology, but I think if you're thinking "correction" you're much less likely to go wrong than if you're thinking "punishment." We are all pretty much conditioned to the idea that punishment is meted out to someone who has done something wrong, whereas the most effective corrections occur before the dog has done anything wrong -- when he is just forming the thought of doing something wrong.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks all--I was using punishment in the behaviorist sense rather than the moral sense and I agree, Eileen, that correction is probably a more useful term given our more general (human) associations with "punishment".

 

I really like the "things falling from the sky" or using objects as teachers (I believe Marilyn T. talked about using the counter to teach dogs not to counter-surf by setting things up to fall or make a lot of noise when the dog jumps up in a recent thread).

 

I've pretty much been a straight positive reinforcement (e.g. good things happen when the dog does a desired behavior); negative punishment (e.g. good things go away when the dog does an undesired behavior) trainer, but that approach has its limits (it seems) with stockwork and I've been trying to learn and understand other kinds of approaches that folks use to various effects.

[Bill Fosher]

What you do is of little or no consequence, as long as the dog isn't physically harmed by your action. When you do it is critical. The only purpose of physical correction is to get the dog's attention away from whatever it is that you don't want him to do. If that takes a butt swat, that's great. If it takes a scruff shake, that's fine too. But, it's pretty darn near to impossible to get the timing right on anything as dramatic as a scruff shake or an alpha roll.

[Smokjbc]

But, it's pretty darn near to impossible to get the timing right on anything as dramatic as a scruff shake or an alpha roll. >>Bill

 

Hey all,

 

 

I think when the scruff or alpha roll follows a well timed verbal correction, it is still effective past the "one second". Or at least seems more effective when I compare it to giving only a well-timed verbal correction. I usually have a better "listener" after that. I use it far more rarely now, more when the dog is totally blowing me off and knows what their "sin" was. On stock anyways, my timing is improved past the point of thinking the dog was always blowing me off as opposed to the dog was reacting to my moronic attempts at handling . Out of the three dogs I currently work now, only one really needs an alpha roll tuneup occasionally and she's my oldest dog- she really isn't very hard but she is impulsive and tends to act before thinking- so a (very) occasional physical correction seems to keep her out of Nellie La-La Land.

 

 

Of course, now that I think about it- it may be that its the "she's coming this way and bad things happen then" response that may be the real effective "listening tool". I can usually get some mileage out of that and find that leaning towards the dog is often effective enough to change behavior post-scruff/roll.

[M.L.]

I know it is hard to catch the dog when they are just thinking about chasing, but this has worked for me. Of course, you have to stand around waiting for that moment with a watchful eye! Ginger wanted to chase our cat, and once she started I couldn't get her attention at all. But I could tell the second before she was about to chase, her body language and stare told me she was about to take off after the cat. This is when I could catch her attention and use the "leave it" command. My dogs know that command well, and that was enough to stop her from chasing. Eventually she just stopped chasing the cat.

[WyoBC]

That's kind of what I had to do with Black Jack. When I first got him he loved to chase rabbits, but after he started he wouldn't quit, no matter how much I told him not to. What I did was put him on his leash walk up to a rabbit and just before he would go to take off I told him "leave him alone" if that didn't work I would give a quick NO then pull him back. I only had to do that a hand full of times until he got it. Now if he's giving a rabbit the "eye" all I have to say is "leave him alone" and he slowy comes back to me.

[iluvlucy]

i know ther will be much criticizm for this,but here goes anyway.

 

when lucy lou was a pup, i rolled up a newspaper and used it to swat her behind. iread somewhere that hands should only be used for love and petting. made sense to me. i am not saying beat the dog, just swat the but. it didn't take long for me to just pick up the rolled up newspaper and she listened. now i can just say i'll get the paper and all is well.

 

another correction i used was to shut her in her port-a-pet when she left the yard. after about the third time she got the message.

 

Lady my stray is very nervous. i do not know her history, but i think she must have been treated very roughly as a puppy. everything seems to scare her-theboom-the mop-even small noises. hopefully she will come out of it with love care

 

ok jump me for using the paper

[BustopherJones]

I have never physically hit Annie. I find that a loud, sharp reprimand will do the job. About the closest I have ever gotten to what could be called physical correction was the use of a water pistol when she was young, used only in extreme circumstances (for instance, to break up a fight with Missy); as noted earlier, this did not generate any linkage in Annie between me and the intervention, but rather associated the intervention with the act. But I have not had to use this extreme since Annie was about 6 months old. There are occasions when I need to get her attention immediately (for instance, if she stops to smell another dog's feces); in those circumstances, a gentle tap on the tip of her tail seems to do the trick.

[AK dog doc]

Mine mostly don't need anything but a "that'll do/leave it" or the ever popular correcter of two year olds the world over.... "Aaahht!" If they're caught in the act of something REALLY bad, the "horrified mom gasp" followed by a scandalized "What are you doing?!?" works wonders. If one of them is blowing me off - and this is usually for situations such as they're all mobbing me for attention and jockeying for position - then saying "Hey!" sharply usually gets their attention, after which they listen better (oooh, mom has the mad voice, better listen!) Once in a while I have to remind an adult/trained dog that (for instance) "sit" means "place the hidquarters on the floor" by tapping them on the butt. This isn't even so much as a swat, it's more a tap to remind them to pay attention to where their butt is.

 

However.

 

First thing is that here we're talking household living, not stock work or other highly-charged situations (where sometimes all bets are off). Next thing is they didn't get that way overnight, and the majority of my dogs have had the benefit of an older, better-behaved (in theory!) dog in the house from whom to take examples, as well as basic obedience classes and my expectations that certain behaviors will hold sway. I personally think that one's expectations seep into their thinking via one's body language, routine, etc., without you or the dog even knowing that training is occurring. Also, there HAVE been times when I physically corrected, and I think if done with appropriate timing and not so harshly as to injure the dog (as Bill says), and in the case of soft dogs not so scarily as to freak them out, then there's nothing wrong with a physical correction. Sometimes a verbal correction is actually worse than a physical one (if you really lose your head screaming at them, even if you never touch them, some soft dogs will lose confidence and/or trust in you, because you no longer appear sane to them and that makes you suspect as a leader, or else they're so freaked out that the only thing they can think of doing is appease and avoid. IMO. Other dogs will just tiptoe around you for a while and later get over it once you appear to have regained your sanity for an appropriate length of time.)

 

I did one time see Finn - who had been snarking back and forth with Ali all day, for reasons known only to themselves - reach over and grab Ali as Ali raced by. He literally flipped Ali on his side from a single neck grab, fast as a striking snake. I was standing right there, so when Finn in the next split second made to lunge toward his downed opponant, I body-checked him with my leg. Since Finn was moving at speed, he hit my leg hard enough to leave a bruise on my shin. The impact bounced Finn back a step (although it wasn't HIM limping around the next day!) - but the main thing was that it shocked him. He was so startled by the complete and abrupt reversal of his plan that he literally looked stunned for a moment. My reaction was more instinctive than anything, but there was MUCH more politeness that afternoon, so I met my goal with amazing efficiency. I seriously doubt that verbal corrections would have been enough that day... both dogs were twitchy and out of sorts and just looking for something to happen. I'd corrected them repeatedly with words, but it just wasn't going to take on that particular day, for whatever reason. Any time they're keyed up - like in stock work, or other very stimulating situations - you may not be able to focus their attention with words. You have to catch their attention somehow. If words aren't going to do it, that leaves body language and physical corrections. You have to pick something, if youre' going to train them.

 

JMO, of course, and you should all bear in mind that I am not a professional trainer, and I am the very littlest of hats. A microscopic hat.

[PSmitty]

"A microscopic hat"! I like that!