Ok I have a question

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Referring, I assume, to Eileen . . .

 

You really should study law

 

:D

 

Now that was worth reading through this entire thread!

[Katelynn & Gang]

You really should study law, it would appear to connect well.

 

LOL

 

I wanted to understand.

 

I doubt that. You came here with your mind already set and I can bet you had already voted to have the Border Collie be accepted by the CKC before you ever even thought of posting. You came here to interrogate and attempt to make people question what they know.

 

Now you've given up not once but twice because your logic just doesn't have a leg to stand on and its not because I nor anyone else "shut you up" by disagreeing and correcting where correction was needed.

 

As a Canadian I do have influence on your latest warfront, but I could never justify letting your mind[space]set impact any dogs in my country.

 

Even if the CKC does accept the Border Collie, it will be a long time before the legal matters are settled and anything "does" happen. Then, whatever "does" happen, either way, I am sure they will keep the Section B (yes, "B" as in "Barbie") dogs around for you to enjoy at your own will, maybe even within the CKC.

 

But . . . . .

 

The CBCA holds all rights to your breed in Canada and it was voted that way years ago by people who knew and needed the breed as it is and should be. Believe me, CBCA's fight to keep the Border Collie out of the CKC is a lot better one then "I want to show Barbie to his Championship because he is so "correct" and pretty, don't you agree?"

 

Get angry. Do you not think it angers us to have to sit back and watch people take the breed we love and turn it into something its not? I'd say we have a lot more to be angry about then just a silly nick name to separate to very different breeds, being bred for two very different purposes, that carry the same name.

 

Better luck next time.

 

Katelynn

[Strider]

I doubt that. You came here with your mind already set and I can bet you had already voted to have the Border Collie be accepted by the CKC before you ever even thought of posting. You came here to interrogate and attempt to make people question what they know.

 

Now you've given up not once but twice because your logic just doesn't have a leg to stand on and its not because I nor anyone else "shut you up" by disagreeing and correcting where correction was needed.

Even if the CKC does accept the Border Collie, it will be a long time before the legal matters are settled and anything "does" happen. Then, whatever "does" happen, either way, I am sure they will keep the Section B (yes, "B" as in "Barbie") dogs around for you to enjoy at your own will, maybe even within the CKC.

 

But . . . . .

 

The CBCA holds all rights to your breed in Canada and it was voted that way years ago by people who knew and needed the breed as it is and should be. Believe me, CBCA's fight to keep the Border Collie out of the CKC is a lot better one then "I want to show Barbie to his Championship because he is so "correct" and pretty, don't you agree?"

 

Get angry. Do you not think it angers us to have to sit back and watch people take the breed we love and turn it into something its not? I'd say we have a lot more to be angry about then just a silly nick name to separate to very different breeds, being bred for two very different purposes, that carry the same name.

 

Better luck next time.

 

Sigh. I came here, a year ago, with no mindset at all. Just a dog and a recommendation from the breeder. Do you truly believe I would walk as a rabbit into the wolves den, just to see if I could convince them not to eat me? Yes, Katelynn, I'm the anti-Christ of the dog world who can make you foresake your breed by asking about it. Tremble in your knowledge.

 

But you would continually put words in my mouth and thoughts in my mind that you would like to see present. I have not justified conformation. Read it again and again - with a dictionary if you must, and just as Eileen did not send me a note, you will find that I only object to your insulting attitude and continual harranguing and name-calling.

 

Do you object to the questioning because it would threaten the sales of Katelynn's Border Collies ? Do you find that insulting? It is. It's as baseless as your assertions and as Eileen unable to lose focus on my dog.

 

It's insulting, as I'm sure you've put heart and soul - and probably tears and blood as well - into your dogs. Just as your flippancy and attacks are insulting. Grow up, little girl, I did not at any time try to justify CKC or AKC membership; I do not think it necessary. It was not the reason for my post, and I did not think declaring so was my password for admission.

 

But as I read Eileen's treatise on why she marginalizes other dogs, I realized that it's nearly word for word the justification used for breed specific legislation in Ontario. That didn't hurt the feelings of Staffies, either. Stick to your own and don't denegrate others and you might gain followers. Others who apologized in notes to me have since explained that she is indeed a lawyer. At least that's amusing.

 

She can, then, explain to you why there is not and is unlikely to be a legal challenge to the CKC membership - despite their assertion - although there can be an effective grassroots movement. If you can stop flubbering long enough to listen you might begin to understand that the CBCA is incorporated under the Animal Pedigree Act which specifically states that they are the registry at the approval of the Minister of Agriculture. The rules are different. The CBCA has no rights at all that aren't revokable with a government pen. By the same token, the CKC could not "register" the breed without his approval either, and that's a better chance than you had here in the US.

 

A legal challenge to the CKC could only be that the Act authorises them to be the sole and single registry of Border Collies in Canada. However, the act provides for resolution which would come down to a directive from the Minister. I can state with almost certainty that the tone generated here, for example, would not bode well in potential decision from the Minister's office. Spitting at the feet of a fluffy, endearing puppy? That'll get you far.

 

A round of name-calling from one side... that makes for great headlines but nothing else, and politics are won or lost on public opinion. If I can't question your genetics thesis without all hell breaking loose, how far will you get with the animal husbandry experts of Agriculture Canada, in a country that funds a national genome strategy? For someone's sake, stop pissing long enough to at least try to explain - even if it does tire you out. You can be Joan of Arc or Mother Theresa; just remember that one failed and died on a burning pyre. The other made a difference.

 

I cannot accept that a group that labels an animal as you've done might gain a foothold on my own shores. As my Cape Breton sheep keeping cousins say - yes it's in the family - if a wolf eats one sheep, it will eat another. That is, and has always been, what prompted me to start writing. Take it for what you will. Abusing me will have gained nothing and possibly lost some small, insignificant part.

 

I will apologise profusely in advance for the base tone of this posting; I've seldom experienced such superiority viciousness. It will at least give Eileen something to include in any potential note to me. I am saddened that I drew such bilious words by simply questioning and that I degenerated into the same tone I was condeming in the first place. That shames me.

 

There may be others who ask, like me. Perhaps you might have better luck next time.

[Smokjbc]

I wanted to understand; to discover the ideal, to reason through the pastiche of flawed genetic "research" and obfuscation. >>Strider

 

 

Unfortunately, for you, the only way you will understand and discover "the ideal" is to do the actual work. If you had half of the experience of the average Pro-Novice Border Collie handler, you could realize that what you are hearing is not hatred or bitterness, but passion for what must not be lost. The very idea of a half Collie/Border Collie being able to do "the work", as you suggested before, is nearly ludicrous. If you understood what we require of these dogs before they are considered working "breeding quality" you could see how ridiculous it is to suggest that they should be bred for anything but the work or that anything but a Border Collie could do it. Do you understand how to develop and train, out of a talented individual, a crossdrive? A shed? a silent gather? (oh wait, the kicker to that is the silent gather is not really about training ). Do you know that a very keen dog with a ton of natural talent could have one fatal flaw, like stickiness, that might be enough to eliminate it from the working gene pool? You mentioned CEA and AIHA as major problems in the Border Collie- yet I've been involved with working dogs in several venues (USBCHA, WCDA, and AHBA) for nearly 13 years now- have not personally known of even ONE dog with those problems. I've met one working bred dog (working parents but an oop! breeding) with severe hip dysplasia and one dog with deafness at 5 years old which may have been genetic or may have been related to parvo she had when younger. I am not saying these things are not things to consider when breeding- they are. But they are defintely not so prevelant as you suggest. Nor does breeding to eliminate these flaws justify discarding the work in favor of "health" or "temperament" or whatever else vanilla-type excuse for laziness occurs.

 

These topics simply go round and round because the ability to undestand is almost always tied into the ability to do the work (human and dog!). In this case, I always think of the example Donald Maccaig put in his book of the shepherd explaining to the novice what he would do with a dog that refused to take a left flank. (I believe it's in Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men). If you could understand the answer...you wouldn't ask such a question in the first place.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Strider, I sent you two notes, long before you posted this. Check your email, at the email address you registered with.

 

>

 

That is truly absurd.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Yes, Katelynn, I'm the anti-Christ of the dog world who can make you [forsake] your breed by asking about it. Tremble in your knowledge.

 

As for you being the anti-Christ, you may just be. As for you being the anti-Christ (or Christ himself) who can make me forsake my breed, I'd like to see that happen. I am totally comfortable with my knowing what my breed is, how it should be bred and what it should be bred for. I am afraid you cannot say the same.

 

As for trembling, it isn't in my nature, if you haven't noticed yet.

 

I have not justified conformation. Read it again and again - with a dictionary if you must, and just as Eileen did not send me a note, you will find that I only object to your insulting attitude and continual [haranguing] and name-calling.

 

You are very correct in the assumption that you did not come right out and try (because that is all that can be done) to justify conformation. Though you sat and debated over what then? I'm confused over your inability to take a side and stand on it. It is throwing me for a loop.

 

Do you object to the questioning because it would threaten the sales of Katelynn's Border Collies ? Do you find that insulting?

 

No, I do not object to questioning. The more you ask, the more there is to say and the more opportunity there is to educate (if that is impossible for you, someone else is always reading). A good debate is something I love.

 

As for “would questioning threaten the sells” of my dogs. No, it wouldn't. Actually, I'd say it'd do the very opposite! My dogs speak for themselves when they work, no questioning can undo that. I do not and would not find it insulting, I know my dogs and their worth (along with others). You could call then Franken Herders all day long (for that is indeed what they are) and you'd still not be able to smack the smile off my face at just the very thought of them working.

 

If only other people had so much confidence in their dogs the breeding that produced them and their ability to do the same work as their ancestors, we'd all be okay.

 

. . . . . . . as Eileen unable to lose focus on my dog.

 

I do not believe that it is Eileen that is unable to lose focus on your dog. It is YOU that cannot lose focus on your dog.

 

Can you not see that this is not about your dog? Or anyone else's dog?

 

This is much more larger and more important then just any “one” dog. It is about the breed and what it is going to be ten years down the road with the decisions people with no understanding or caring of what makes it a breed make as to what it should and shouldn't look like!

 

Grow up, little girl, I did not at any time try to justify CKC or AKC membership; I do not think it necessary. It was not the reason for my post, and I did not think declaring so was my password for admission.

 

I'm really holding back on this one, as there are MANY things I'd love to say but I do hold a respect for my elders to the point of biting my cheek on this one. I my be young but I am not the one sitting around writing things like “Grow up, little girl.”

 

And if I'm just a silly little girl, then what are you for being a “grown” man sitting on a PC somewhere far away fighting with me over something you have no opinion on?

 

At least I have an opinion on the subject to debate with. You're a grown man and do not even have that! Yet you are still on here debating with this little girl over what?!

 

Get real!

 

Katelynn M. Sulaica

[borderlicious]

Strider (I promise this will be my last post to you, if you don't want to hear what I have to say):

 

I have a "Barbie" collie. I've said this dozens of times, and trust me – I know how easy it is to take things personally. In fact, I had a hard time even being in this section for some time as I hated what I perceived to be the trash-talking of all dogs with questionable (not for working purposes) breeding. I would think that it was a jab at all of these dogs, an assumption that they are worthless, inbred airheads. My dog is intelligent, keen to please me and gives everything he tries his very best shot; so, for the life of me I couldn’t understand why people would call such a useful dog a “Barbie”.

 

Then I saw actual stock work. Not AKC herding, not the occasional chore on the farm, but what a fully trained work dog needs to be in order to be useful to its owner. Granted, I have never relied on a dog to work livestock, but here’s my novice observation anyway:

 

These dogs need to work with their handler as well as possible, with as little stress on the stock as possible, and not take all day doing it. A dog with a lot of natural talent for this kind of work is a MUST if one relies on their dog to get a job done. No farmer in their right mind will bother with clicker training his entire flock to work well under an inferior dog, nor will he spend years trying to train a dog with no ability to work that flock. I’ve seen people training their show-bred dogs to work. It’s very, very hard work for the trainer. A lot of people wind up shaping behaviors that should be there, but aren’t. In the long run, after thousands of hours and dollars in training, these dogs would probably never get out of USBCHA Novice. They cannot work “just as well” as so many people claim and as you seem to be implying.

 

My own dog does therapy work, agility, obedience and goose control. Smart as he is, versatile as he is, he’d make a crappy sheepdog. I could take some pictures of him with sheep and say he’s “herding”, but put him on a farm and he’d do more harm than good. That’s okay . . . I love my dog and I will not do him the disservice of pretending he’s something he isn’t.

 

Ultimately, I’ve found out that this “name calling” is not meant to inflame, but to inform. It isn’t a jab at the dogs, but at their purpose.

[Black Watch Debatable]

borderlicious ---

 

Strider, you wrote

But as I read Eileen's treatise on why she marginalizes other dogs, I realized that it's nearly word for word the justification used for breed specific legislation in Ontario.

 

Let's compare "the justification used for BSL in Ontario" with Eileen's "treatise":

 

Michael Bryant: "I am convinced that pit bulls [APBTs, AmStaffs, Staffy Bulls and any dog that remotely resembles them] are ticking time bombs. I am convinced that they are inherently dangerous animals... Just as we wouldn't let a great white shark in a swimming pool, maybe we shouldn't have these animals on the civilized streets... Pit bulls: banned. Banned. We are banning pit bulls."

Eileen: I do feel the need to oppose the breeding of border collies for conformation, and I would indeed like to marginalize the conformation-bred dogs. I think it's important to the future of our breed that I and others do our utmost in this regard -- otherwise the conformation version will become the breed norm and marginalize the traditional working dog, as has happened in breed after KC breed, and which would be a tremendous loss, especially to those who need a good working dog.

Eileen wants the working border collie (rather than the conformation dog) to be the breed norm --- so that the stock sense, the working drive, the intelligence, the athleticism and the trainability of the breed will remain paramount, rather than things like coat length and ear set.

 

Breeding dogs for coat length, ear set, etc. is not illegal, and Eileen has never suggested it should be. She has never lobbbied for the killing of any dog on the basis of its appearance, and it's rather obscene of Strider to compare her to those idiots who do lobby for such horrors.

 

And yes, that's a pit bull in my avatar. Strider, if they weren't so busy shipping dogs out of the province to save them from wild-eyed cretins like Michael Bryant, I'd share your comments with friends involved in Ontario pit bull rescue. They'd faint with joy if the worst thing the pit bull had to worry about was marginalization within the bull breeds.

 

There's an old saying about the fool who picks a path: the path ends and the fool keeps going. I must be the foolish one, because I can't for the life of me figure out what point Strider is trying to make. So I'll head for bed

[zenotri]

[/i]

Eileen: I do feel the need to oppose the breeding of border collies for conformation, and I would indeed like to marginalize the conformation-bred dogs. I think it's important to the future of our breed that I and others do our utmost in this regard -- otherwise the conformation version will become the breed norm and marginalize the traditional working dog, as has happened in breed after KC breed, and which would be a tremendous loss, especially to those who need a good working dog.

Eileen wants the working border collie (rather than the conformation dog) to be the breed norm --- so that the stock sense, the working drive, the intelligence, the athleticism and the trainability of the breed will remain paramount, rather than things like coat length and ear set.

 

Strider (or anyone), if you need evidence of the above, I invite you to visit Australia. What Eileen is opposed to above has well & truly happened here. The conformation bred BC IS the norm. The average person here seems to assume that anything else (fine boned, pricked ear, normal sized head, moderate to short coat) is a crossbred. I too have a conformation bred BC, and I love him to death but he does not come even close to having any of the qualities which make our breed unique. For all intents and purposes, he could be a dog of any breed who just happens to be black & white. I also have a BC off a farm, who I adore as well...but I know his breeding by what he can do in terms of livestock...not much. I have no doubt his parents worked, they obviously just didn't compliment each other and no thought was given as to what they would produce. There are so many breeds who no longer have a purpose to fill, why turn one who does into something we already have in so many other breeds?

 

The ironic thing that I always laugh at is that people look at my dogs, comment on how pretty my show bred dog is and ask me how on earth I manage my working bred dogs. It's easy I say, they don't bark at insects, chase lightning, freak out at weird noises, they get along well with other dogs and never growl at people like the one you think is so pretty. I am not saying that all conformation dogs are like this, but I think it seems to be a fairly regular consequence of breeding for appearance.

[Pipedream Farm]

We're fighting identity theft; the identity of our breed is being stolen just like most other working breeds.

 

 

 

When someone says Poodle, do you think of the water retriever it was developed as or the large dog with the exaggerated hair cuts seen in the breed ring or even all the other sizes?

 

vs

 

When you here dachshund, do you think of a short legged pet (wiener dog) or a short legged hound that tracks wounded game through the brush?

 

 

 

When you here cocker spaniel do you picture this:

 

 

 

or this:

 

 

 

Up until recently (last 5-10 years) when someone said Border Collie everyone would always think livestock working dog. As that perception changes (and it is), so will the bulk of the dogs that represent the breed. Eventually there will be two distinct breeds, the one bred for work and the one that the general public knows. In other words, the identity of our breed is being stolen just like the identity of poodle, cocker spaniel, and dachshund has been stolen from those who breed working examples of their breed.

 

Mark

[Rosanne]

Ready to get shouted down again... but some arenas do require the working display prior to conformation application. However, it depends, apparently, on what you believe might define a border collie.

 

If your definition is that it's a sheep dog, then any sheep dog would do. The standard belief is that the BC must exhibit other characteristics such as "the eye", the crouching pose, the intensity and intelligence, etc. Conformation shows take it differently and incorporate build, colour, etc.

 

The conformation proponents argue that the ability is innate, and their issue is that the dog is a "border collie" because it appears to be a "border collie". They assume that the skill to herd will remain intact. I know that the body shaping of other conformation champions has made their ability to do the bred job impossible: German Shepherds in North America are a fine and tragic example in my opinion, as are the dangerously overweight labradors.

 

The herding people insist that breeding for looks will dilute the herding ability, the conformation people argue that the breedings have produced a dog that is no longer a border collie, despite its other abilities.

 

While working the genetics, I did find merles that were "champions", as well as reds/livers. You can find most of the pedigree chains online, and the line breeding (or inbreeding, depending on the result) is intriguing if nothing else.

 

This was Strider's original post. I'm not quite sure what the point is, but it seems to be attempting to examine both sides of an issue. . . and the contention that arose from the general populace here seemed to be on the fine points, like defining 'champion', etc. I'm not really sure even WHY this became an argument. I don't wish to involve myself, but i am certainly confused on the actual points of contention here.

 

Unfortunately, in the U.S., the conformation showers and the working people are NOT one and the same. There are a few breeds where they are - but this seems to happen more in rarer breeds where the AKC has helped them to make a come back in this country by registering and record-keeping and funding,etc. This was totally unnecessary in BC's and was actually fought against. That fight has been LOST here - that is why such bitterness, I think.

 

Perhaps ABCA should start a campaign to force AKC to change the name of the dogs, like the Parson Russel/Jack Russel dichotomy. I don't know how they accomplished it, but it's a pretty neat trick.

 

For what it's worth regarding color in working dogs, I had a merle with blue eyes. While I'm NO expert at all, I used to farm-sit for somebody who had sheep and BC's. She did not work the sheep with her 2 dogs, but I did with my merle. Those sheep CERTAINLY respected my dog, and she had plenty of power to move them wherever she wished. She had no trouble moving them in the few lessons I took either (on an instructor's sheep). This leads me to believe that if you have a merle/red/dilute/whatever that HAS 'power' or whatever you wish to call it, the sheep will move.

Can sheep even see red? How different can a blue merle look from 20 yards away? Wouldn't a smooth-coat look more different than a blue merle? There are several mostly-white dogs I've noticed on people's web-pages coming out and doing well in Open this year, this would seem to me to say that mostly-white dogs can work just fine as well. . .

I think an orane, purple and green BC would work fine, if it was bred right.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

The name change of the AKC breed from Jack Russell Terrier to Parson Russell Terrier was voluntary, not forced. The real Jack Russell Terrier registry, the JRTCA, was delighted to see it happen (as we certainly would be), but they didn't bring it about. The change was proposed by the AKC parent club (the JRTAA, which then became the PRTAA), so that the name would be consistent with the British Kennel Club, which is now using the name Parson Russell Terrier. Some of the other overseas Kennel Clubs (e.g. Australia, Ireland) recognize two sizes of the dogs, terming the smaller one "Jack Russell Terrier" and the taller one "Parson Russell Terrier." The breed standard of the AKC JRT specifies the taller size, so there too the name change contributed to international consistency. The AKC went along with the parent club's request. So unfortunately this does not give rise to any hope that we could get AKC to change the name of their Border Collies, since neither AKC nor the BCSA wants to do the honorable thing. They prefer the identity theft.

[Rosanne]

<< Perhaps ABCA should start a campaign to force AKC to change the name of the dogs, like the Parson Russel/Jack Russel dichotomy. I don't know how they accomplished it, but it's a pretty neat trick. >>

 

The name change of the AKC breed from Jack Russell Terrier to Parson Russell Terrier was voluntary, not forced.

 

 

Oh well.

If only ABCA could call and cancel all their credit cards and not be liable for fraudulent charges...

[Kat's Dogs]

Just wanted to say to Mark, I LOVE seeing photos of other working breeds!!

Whoohoo! That brings a little light into the world, seeing those dogs still out there, somewhere, showing that someone still works with them and is happy to buy a dog without a CH before their name if they can just get their job done. Makes me smile. and again. and one more time.

[Bill Fosher]

I think what it comes down to is that Strider knows something about dogs in general, something about the breed ring, and happens to own something that is called a Border collie and is trying to synthesize the knowledge he or she has with the breed of his or her own dog. The problem is that there's a lot of information missing, and Strider doesn't seem to get the Rumsfeldian distinctions of "known unknowns" versus "unknown unknowns." Strider doesn't know what he or she doesn't know, and doesn't seem to be willing to listen to anything from people who do know what Strider doesn't know.

 

Stider is trying to make the square peg of the working Border collie fit the round hole of his or her knowledge and understanding. You can't do that without lopping off the corners or changing the shape of the hole. We're trying to get Strider to change the shape of the hole, and Strider wants to lop off the corners of the square peg, but doesn't realize it because he or she has never seen a square peg before, and doesn't want to believe that this one really is different.

 

It's a similar intellectual problem to that of our friend, Jon Katz. When people try to explain to him that he doesn't know Border collies very well, despite his authorship of books and ownership of a few, he dismisses them as snobs rather than being open to new information. Strider choses to be insulted and hurt rather than call us snobs, but the idea is the same.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

That was pretty awesome, Bill. Unknown unknowns indeed!

[MrSnappy]

I love these threads. I practically throw myself on my back and roll around in glee at the knowledge being shared by smarter peoples.

 

RDM

[Rosanne]

Bill, thanks for laying out there plain as day! Very eloquently stated.

 

If only I could figure out exactly what Strider was defending. His/her dignity I guess!?

 

When I came to the boards I was stunned at the ferocity of the defense here, and after stepping back and thinking a lot I have changed my opinions on some things quite a bit. (I also take weekly lessons with a nice instructor and when the fields/lambing clears up I will probably be working my dog(s) several times a week; because I WANT to learn what my dogs can do, what they were bred for; and it's fun too!)

 

I have a hard time believing someone who has been lurking here for a year would be suprised by the tenacity, ferocity, and terrier-like persistence of the members here. All you have to do is read the 'stickies' and you can see exactly what this place is about. Check out some archived threads and the reason for the 'hostility' is obvious.

 

And yes, the people here DO have something in common with AKC attitudes; they believe they are trying to do the best for their breed by preserving everything that makes a border collie a border collie. AKC people just happen to have a totally mucked up definition, that's all.