Female vs. Female

[SincereArtisan]

Well, I've noticed the rivalry between Idolon and Rune escalating for the past couple months. I'm begining to get a little concerned, and I wanted advice from any of you who have dealt with this before.

 

Rune is 13 months, Idolon is 10 months. Lately their play-fights have been getting more vocal. The only time I call time out is when I hear a yelp, but by then its usually too late. (Rune knows when some one yelps, be it her or Ido, I break things up so she usually takes the initiative and backs off.)

 

The typical bout of play begins with a game of bitey-face, then some chasing, then some tussling....and before you know it, hackles are up, gutteral growls are being traded back and forth, and they both have their demon-faces on. Rune usualy wins these little combats--she'll end up with her mouth around Ido's muzzle or scruff holding her down for a couple seconds--but lately, Ido hasn't been giving up as easily. As a result, I've noticed a few nicks and scratches on muzzles and ears.

 

I supervise my dogs religiously. I even have them trained to stay in whatever room I choose to be in--sans the bathroom--so I know what they're up to. (This also helps me make sure they don't herd the cats.) This is totally alien from their usual bouts of play with one another. I've even heard others remark about their play sessions getting a lot rougher, and this is from people who ibserve my dogs every day.

 

I'm begining to get concerned for what this might mean in 6 months or so. Especially since they're leaving marks on one another. Anyone have any advice?

[MaggieDog]

You're right to be concerned. Inter-bitch aggression is VERY hard to fix once it gets started. In my experience, it will continue to escalate if allowed to go on.

 

If I were you, I'd start breaking things off when hackles are raised or just before if you can. The book "Fight" by Jean Donaldson has a great section on "play skill deficits" that, while designed for dogs w/ play issues in general, might be incredibly helpful for you to learn how to stop things before play escalates into fighting. I highly recommend the book for anyone dealing with any type of dog-dog aggression issues or developing ones.

 

Are the dogs both on NILIF? If not, I'd be starting that asap as well.

[SincereArtisan]

Yes, Both dogs are on NILIF training techniques, although lately Idolon has been testing the boundaries of this training method. I'll ask her to sit before opening a door and she stares at me blankly. I ask her to lay down before throwing the frisbee and she stares at me blankly. Even her recall is getting rusty, she hesitates in whatever she's doing and looks at me as if to say "Why should I?" and usually takes a detour to get to me. She also wont approach me entirely, but stay just out of arms reach, if I aim to leash her. So its back to keeping her on a tie-out or lead when out doors, to reinforce recall, and I've been just as stubborn about the NILIF.

 

Rune, on the other hand, is an angel by comparison. There is nothing I ask her to do that she doesn't do instantly and without hesitation.

 

Before the hackles get raised, Rune gets this gutteral growl thing going on, and its usually spurred on by Idolon running up on her, growling, scruff-biting, and relentless nagging until Rune is thrown off balance and forced to retaliate. By all outward appearences it looks as if one just got the other to finally play. But, this is nothing like the way they used to play.

 

I'll admit at first I thought Idolon was going to be the more submissive one and come out beneath Rune. There were times I'd be playing fetch with her, and Rune would intercept, surprise ido by nipping at her haunch, whereupon Idolon would drop the ball. It soon became apparent that this was Rune's way of stopping Ido from getting attention, as after one or two treatments of this from Rune, Idolon wouldn't go after the ball if Rune was between her and the ball. All Rune had to do was look like she wanted that ball and Ido would give it up and slink away. So I would call Rune off and put her in a down-stay when playing fetch with Ido, and praise her for not interfering.

 

But, aparently as Ido got older, things changed. Now, at 10 months, she's butting heads with Rune. Idon't want either to get hurt by the other, and I'm worried its headed that way. At such an early age, too, I can only imagine the problem I might be facing in the future.

 

I'll check out that book you suggested, thanks.

[Mollie&Me]

I agree with MaggieDog; try interceding sooner. I have two female BC's in my house, and I had to learn quickly to separate them before playing turns into agression. It had been impressed upon me early that this sort of behaviour should not be allowed to occur in order for my dogs to maintain a healthy relationship and a healthy household.

 

Generally what I look for, before hackles even have a chance to raise, is the tone of barking and growls. However, my dogs are vocal when they're playing and if yours aren't, then you'll need to pay close attention for other signs, such as showing their teeth for example. There's a difference between play teeth and the I'm-seriously-mad-you'd-better-run teeth. As soon as you see a sign, you need to give them the command to stop (I use "enough"), even if it means you're interrupting play time.

 

What also seemed to work well for me was being right at the centre of play sessions. We have a special tugger that my girls and I play with; they play with eachother while I play with them. I'm supervising them on-site and can easily anticipate and cool down any agressive behaviour, while impressing upon them the proper behaviour for playing.

 

It sounds to me like you're getting into the terrible two's (figuratively lol). One thing I know about BC's is that they will try to push you - that whole inch and mile thing I've gone through the phases when they decide to try and ignore what you are telling them to do, or they look at you from the corner of their eye while they take their sweet time doing it lol. Your Idolon is rebelling, I think, and testing the limits of how far you are going to let her go. Just keep on perservering and remember that we've probably all been there

And (as an aside) if you're finding that Idolon is reacting to your recall commands in a blase way, then maybe you need to give her a compelling reason to want to come to you. My dogs were trained off-leash right from the get-go, meaning they have to have solid recalls. When I say 'come', they are more excited to come to me than anything else. I did this several ways; the old tried-and-true treats in your pocket, as well as having someone hold them at a distance while I yelled their name and basically got them excited to get to me. I also played hide and seek with them both indoors and outdoors. If I take one step to the right on a walk they come barrelling back at me lol.

Just some suggestions, in any case

 

Good luck and keep us posted!

[kelpiegirl]

I just posted a thread- bitches being bitches- very akin to this thread. I have four bitches in my house- and all but one can be bitchy. I have one who plays- well, acts like she wants to play, and then nails someone for being what she thinks is out of line- in so doing puts marks/holes in them. This is not well accepted by my current enforcer in the house. So, basically, my mode of operation is to allow only small amounts of playing outside- running sort of stuff, and letting Nikke know that if she gets nasty, game is over. She gets to the point where when she thinks she is going to nail someone, she looks for me ;0) It is all about management. It is fine that your two play- outside, and for short periods of time- but before it escalates, stop the play. They need to basically gravitate from the full on play- less is more if you like Watch for signs of staring and bitchiness when they are not playing- sometimes tension comes out in the play. It is all about vigilance and management. You must be the top bitch in your house. Marks on eachother- red flag- someone WILL get hurt, and someone WILL retaliate- just stop it before then

Julie

 

Well, I've noticed the rivalry between Idolon and Rune escalating for the past couple months. I'm begining to get a little concerned, and I wanted advice from any of you who have dealt with this before.

 

Rune is 13 months, Idolon is 10 months. Lately their play-fights have been getting more vocal. The only time I call time out is when I hear a yelp, but by then its usually too late. (Rune knows when some one yelps, be it her or Ido, I break things up so she usually takes the initiative and backs off.)

 

The typical bout of play begins with a game of bitey-face, then some chasing, then some tussling....and before you know it, hackles are up, gutteral growls are being traded back and forth, and they both have their demon-faces on. Rune usualy wins these little combats--she'll end up with her mouth around Ido's muzzle or scruff holding her down for a couple seconds--but lately, Ido hasn't been giving up as easily. As a result, I've noticed a few nicks and scratches on muzzles and ears.

 

I supervise my dogs religiously. I even have them trained to stay in whatever room I choose to be in--sans the bathroom--so I know what they're up to. (This also helps me make sure they don't herd the cats.) This is totally alien from their usual bouts of play with one another. I've even heard others remark about their play sessions getting a lot rougher, and this is from people who ibserve my dogs every day.

 

I'm begining to get concerned for what this might mean in 6 months or so. Especially since they're leaving marks on one another. Anyone have any advice?

[Shetlander]

It is fine that your two play- outside, and for short periods of time- but before it escalates, stop the play. They need to basically gravitate from the full on play- less is more if you like Watch for signs of staring and bitchiness when they are not playing- sometimes tension comes out in the play. It is all about vigilance and management. You must be the top bitch in your house. Marks on eachother- red flag- someone WILL get hurt, and someone WILL retaliate- just stop it before then

 

I agree with all the advice, especially about monitoring and limiting their play. Quinn does great with other Border Collies and some terriers he knows but can be too rough for my other dogs, plus there is the competition factor of them all living together. He and the Lhasa are almost never allowed to play except in a couple situations and then only very briefly. Otherwise it always ends in a fight. He and the sheltie do better, but I need to be there and tell Quinn when to tone it down for her. Like Julie's dog who learned when to look to her, Quinn is learning when he starts getting too wild to lie down on his own without me telling him. I also make sure he understands the game is over when Sassy has had enough.

[stockdogranch]

If, as the title of the thread suggests, this is truly a fight for the throne, you may be in big trouble. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...I had a similar situation. These were two seriously dominant females, both with very strong personalities, one the neice to the other. The older one was 2 when the pup came into the pack at 10 weeks. At first they were best of freinds, but over time, the younger one spent all her time vying for position, which was never going to happen as long as my #1 female is still around. They worked together extermely well, and when we were in a working situation, they got along fine, and all was great--they were a brace team to behold! But in the house, especially around ME, was where the trouble escalated. At first it was just the younger one who would act nasty to everyone in the household, including my two neutered males, but soon she had everyone acting that way--just going up and taking a snipe at someone's nose when they weren't looking. Snarling, growling, circling each other all the time--it was awful.

 

You can try all the various methods to stop them, but if they are truly ready to fight to the death, as mine were, you will have to then either separate them completely, always, or, do what I had to do, rehome one. At least in my situation, she was a fully trained cattle (and sheep) working dog, so I could sell her to a great home (a good friend) where she will continue to have lots of work, and I can still see her at trials, etc. It was the absolutely most difficult thing I've ever done, as she was my up and coming young dog, and she was a great worker, but, I realized how unhappy SHE was--she was totally miserable, so this was the best solution.

 

She is now very happy in Idaho, and after being in her new home two months, won the open cattle class at the stock show in Denver last month out of 53 dogs. It still hurts, and when I have a tough job to do, I sure miss her (and I'm sure the other bitch even does then, too), but I know it was the right thing to do. I hope you don't end up having to make the same sort of decision I did...

Anna

[flrpwr52]

I too have gone through this. My girls are 10 months apart and the posturing started when Ari, younger one, turned 8 months. They were going at it almost daily, but nothing really too bad.

 

Then we had the first "big" fight and Ari came away with a scratch on her nose. They continued to try to fight but I learned the warning signals and was able to stop most of the fights before they even got started.

 

There was only one way possible to separate them once they were fighting and that was to get them by their tails. I never scolded either one of them because I was told you have to scold the one who started the fight and I could never be sure which one did so I corrected no one.

 

Their fights always started over who was getting attention or who got the ball first. Now neither gets attention unless both are sitting and they get called to us one at a time and we play with 2 balls.

Their last fight was last summer when Ari had just turned 1. They might do a little growling once in a while but don't we all?

 

Try to figure out what the trigger is and stop it before it happens. Ari always shot her tail straight up in the air just before she was going to do something so that was one of my red flags.

 

Good luck, I know how hard it can be to watch them go after each other.