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Devil in a puppy suit

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Lunar -


I understand what you are saying, and we all sound so mean after she stepped in and saved one of the pups from the puppy mill ... but after seeing her comments on some other boards, it's obvious that she now has a "real" Border Collie. What kind of comments? She commented that about half of the 50 ABCA registered

dogs that she had seen during their first few introductions to sheep had been "washed out" by the third lesson because they would literally not even look at the sheep, but that EVERY SINGLE AKC conformation-bred dog that she had seen exposed to livestock has turned on within a couple of minutes ... la la la la... She gives reasons for this ... such as maybe the local farmers only bring their worst dogs to the stockdog trainers (where she is seeing them) and the AKC people only bring their best ones ... or that maybe because many of the washout dogs are kennel dogs who don't have a relationship with their owners, etc.


Of course, this all happened on the AKC_BC Yahoo Group, where her entire audience will agree with her. If you're on that list, you can check message number 5963, 5991, and 5996 to see what I mean.


There was another big, long thread on another board (the thread is gone now as the server crashed) where she spent a lot of time claiming that her AKC dog could competitively compete in USBCHA if he had a different handler, etc., and trying to convince people that the dog she has been competing with -- despite being a show champion -- is just as intense, just as talented, etc. So those of us who have read those threads, and now see this thread, where she is complaining about TYPICAL BC puppy behavior only confirms what we already knew was true.



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Well perhaps they didn't know of the new methods? I'm guessing when she trained her other dogs for the invisible fence it was a good while ago. I wouldn't jump to conclusions about it being an "excuse."





Read the following quotes from Columbia. She was clearly commmenting on training the 6 1/2 month old pup to IF. Not a dog from a long time ago. Some of us also know this person and she infamous for making excuses.


""Repo is now 6 1/2 mos. old and is a total hooligan!


Here's why... I have an invisible fence for my 3 acre front yard, at the end of a dead-end country road. Until last year I worked from home, and my other dogs (pre-Repo) would run around out there all day while I gardened and did chores.


2) Repo was too young to train to an invisible fence prior to having the tenants arrive. Dogs have to be at least 6 months old. And besides that, he is a car-chaser in the making, and it is unsafe for this kind of dog to use an invisible fence.""



Age has nothing to do with training on IF as they can be started at 8 - 9 weeks of age. So that shouldn't be used as an excuse. I have trained plenty of dogs that want to chase cars on IF with no problems. It all has to do with the training and how much the owners are wiling to devote to the training.



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I'm using "well bred" in the more common usage, in which I'm referring to the PRODUCT of the breeding--that is, the puppy--having good qualities.


Huh? No one uses "well bred" this way. If you feel comfortable speaking a different language than everyone else, I guess that's your prerogative, but don't expect anyone to understand you.

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Jodi - Thanks for the explanation. I don't read any other dog-related forums or email lists, so it looked out of the blue to me. I can see your point.


Kathy - Yes, she was talking about training her new puppy... but what I was saying was that she might only know about the methods of training that were around when she trained her old dogs. You mentioned that the NEW training methods safely work with young puppies. Just pointing out that she may not know about the new methods. (Not saying that's the case, as I don't know, just a possibility.)


But, it sounds like you know this person better than I do.

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Take him to doggie day care 1 or 2 days a week. The rest of the time, crate him with one Kong and a chewie and have someone (like the upstairs tenants or a neighbor) take him out at lunch time. Or, crate him and take him in your car with you. It won't be forever. It shouldn't be too hot this time of year and there is an art to dog parking.


Mine have solar reflective crate covers (and a windshield cover) and I move the car at lunch time during the warmer months. Both of my dogs are crated in the car while I'm at work. They get play time and potty breaks during the day and longer walks or runs before or after work. They wouldn't be that much happier staying at home - they would just sleep there instead.


My Ben came to me as a young adult with NO OFF FUNCTION! None, whatsoever. He would offer a toy over and over or try to play with Nellie even though she was tired of it and so was I. So I taught him how to turn off.


I ask him to settle and take him to his mat and lie him down. He's allowed to get off his mat after several minutes and hang out somewhere else but if he get goofy again, straight in the crate he goes. When he lays down in his crate for a couple of minutes, I'll open the door and he can come and go as he likes unless he gets goofy again in which case its back in the crate for a longer stretch.


Ben has improved dramatically using this technique. Now, if I ignore him he actually GOES AWAY instead of trying over and over again. He doesn't play nearly as roughly in the house and has a lot more impulse control and frustration tolerance in other areas of his life.


This technique should rapidly cure your pup from bringing you the ball 500 times a day.


Hope that helps!





As I said, he'd sure better make up for this by being my first Open trial winner a couple years from now!
Of course you were just kidding... :rolleyes:
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Thanks for your advice and your success story with Ben--I have actually started working on the mat idea and it is working very well.


I picked out an ACD puppy for a coworker from the shelter this spring--she is identical in age to Repo. My co-worker has been teaching her puppy to stay on a towel and chew toys until given permission to leave. Her puppy is definitely the best mannered ACD I have ever met, and in fact one of the best mannered of any breed. So I know your mat advice is good!


About the crating in the car, I have done that in the past with my JRT when he was a puppy and had separation anxiety. I'd alternated days in doggy daycare with days in the car while at work--and of course many breaks for walks and playtime. But now that I have this huge puppy playroom with dogdoor to an outdoor kennel surrounded by forest... I hate to have to crate Repo for 10 hours, and prefer to just make his rooms more puppy proof.


Anyway, I made Repo out to be much worse than he is out of a sense of comic hyperbole--in other words, I had started this thread to be a comic story of a zany day in the life of one 6 mos. BC puppy!


Other than bringing me the balls, Repo is actually wonderful in the house. He will settle down and chew hooves for long periods of time, and never chews inappropriate items. He is not pushy with me or the other dogs, and plays appropriately with them for short periods of time... then goes and entertains himself or trains with me. He has been housetrained for several months, too.


It was mainly him being silly in his outdoor room that I wrote about in my original post. I thought it would be fun to share the story of him knocking out a lightbulb, carrying it outside and burying it--that has never happened in my 40 years of dog guardianship.


However, a friend of mine (and board lurker) pointed out that in my original post I seemed possibly upset, and insinuating that Repo was abnormal in his activity level. In fact, I think he is quite normal in his activity--I just lucked out with my first two BCs. :D I think he is a super funny puppy.


In the last few days, I have fixed Repo's destructive tendencies in his playroom, and he is having a wonderful safe time out there now (safe for the textiles, that is!) For the rug/mat chewing, I had tried Bitter Apple, which didn't work for him. Then I had tried some "Fooey" (more bitter stuff) and that was the day he destroyed his dog bed. It turns out that Fooey does work--and VERY well!--I just hadn't sprayed it all over the bed but only on the front edge.


I have now been using it more liberally for the past 4-5 days, and no destruction at all. I even put in a new dog bed (tied down with wire, and sprayed with Fooey) and he has not snacked on it or on the carpet strip. He is now happily playing with his stuffed Kongs and his bungee tug toy that hangs from the ceiling... and I removed all nearby flourescent lights, just in case lightning strikes twice!


For the repeated ball-retrieving, I decided to extinguish this kind of retrieving totally. I had been trying to teach him to bring the ball to my hand, and because of this, I was rewarding some of his retrieves (the ones where I could touch the ball before he dropped it) and ignoring all the others. However, this served to put him on a variable reinforcement schedule, which meant he just brought the ball more and more, thinking that he had to simply bring it 20 or 50 times before I would throw it.


Starting on Friday, I started ignoring EVERY retrieve. I simply don't look at him or the ball, or try to get my hand under it, or encourage him to bring it "the whole way," or anything else. All it took was two evenings, and he gave up bringing me the ball and simply started chewing hooves by himself. So the ball bringing had been inadvertently "trained in" by me, and was pretty easily extinguished.


At the same time, I'm devoting about 15 min. each evening to "formal retrieve" lessons where he is rewarded for various components of a GOOD retrieve, such as holding the ball, moving on leash with the ball in his mouth, etc. When he masters retrieving "to hand," I may allow some informal retrieves during the day, though I will be careful to initiate them myself instead of letting Repo decide that it is time for me to throw for him!


Thanks for your great advice, and it was nice to hear of the success you had with Ben.


Columbia, MO


P.S. Yes, I was just kidding about Repo having to win Open trials in a few years. I would also forgive him for the lightbulb incident if he wins some Ranch classes... :rolleyes:

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Thank you Jodi for that "heads up". A lot of things make sense now.


"Columbia" - do you remember warning me that these pups, born in a barn and bred by a "tobacco chewing farmer", would grow up to be maladjusted?




Here's one - obviously terrified of that ball at his feet (also working sheep already, by the way):




Here's another one -





This one is just so screwed in so many ways I can't name them - for instance, what self respecting Border collie would be best friends with the family cat?




Early tractor fumes exposure is the only possible explanation for ears like this:




Too bad she has no interest in stock:




It's been a while since that conversation. I hope you've come to respect the traditions that produced this breed a bit more since then but I kind of wonder.

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You have a bigger problem than just early tractor fumes. That permanent head-cocked-tongue-out thing is probably caused by licking the tobacco chew spit off the side of the barn.


It's painfully obvious that Columbia MO has not learned much, if anything at all, from the last go-round we all had with her. Very sad.


And of course she was just kidding about Repo having to win Open trials in a few years. She meant he'd have to win the Advanced AKC "B" course, because that is, after all, the same thing, right?!?!?!



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Originally posted by Columbia MO:

Anyway, I made Repo out to be much worse than he is out of a sense of comic hyperbole--in other words, I had started this thread to be a comic story of a zany day in the life of one 6 mos. BC puppy!

When both my dogs were 6 months old, they did not act like this. I did not let them act like this. This is just an excuse to now get everyone to forget the things you have stated in this thread.


Of course, I have one of those pups that is related to Becca's...so I may just have an abnormal dog. Keegan was also raised in an outdoor barn/kennel.

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Good grief! This thread makes me realize how lucky I have been with my two nuclear-powered monkeys! Both were "toerags" when they were puppies, but nothing like this! Things got chewed up, but that all stopped when teething was over.


It's fortunate that I had taken "early severance" from my job, and was about all day (in fact, dog senior was acquired to beat the boredom I was suffering!), but even I have to go out without dogs sometimes!


Nowadays, I'm not fit enough to control a BC on a leash around town (arthritis in both hips and spine), so when we go for the weekly shopping trip, the Boys have to stay home by themselves, for about 4 hours at a time. They seem to manage perfectly for these periods (perhaps because they know there may be a reward for peaceful behaviour?), because I never see blood on the walls, ripped furniture or burst doors!


On another board, some of us members have been discussing whether or not it is physically possible to wear out a Border Collie! I find that over half an hour chasing balls on a beach gets me about 15 minutes of quiet.......



These lads are from working stock - just the "accidental by-blows" of farmyard skulduggery, with no paperwork whatsoever. One is scared of sheep, the other doesn't see why he should bother making the effort!


Sorry to be of no help, I just wanted to say how lucky you made me feel!




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Have you taught Repo to "go find it"? In the morning while you are getting ready for work you could hide his kong/ball/whatever either inside or outside, then have him go find it. That would provide some mental stimulation for him and allow you to get ready for work.


You could also teach him the names of his toys and have him go find a certain toy. That would require more thinking on his part. I think something like that would be better than a treadmill.


After work you could bring him into the yard to blow off some energy. Just stay out there with him so that he can learn to stay out of the flowerbeds. Mine won't dare step foot in mine or I'd make the earth split in half and swallow them whole.


If you're unable to have someone let him out halfway then I would definately shrink the area he is allowed in, including the outside run. You don't want him to practice anymore bad behaviors while you're gone. The longer it goes on, the more ingrained it becomes, and the harder it will be for you to correct it.


Plus alot of other advice already given. I'd like to see you succeed with him.

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Taryn -


Thank you for your interjection. "Normal," "well behaved," and "social to both people and dogs" is the bare minimum we, as a society, should expect from breeders who are taking it upon themselves to play God with dogs' genes. It's not something they should be patted on the back for.


I just want to make it clear to any newbies reading this thread that while "normal" "well behaved" and "social to both people and dogs" are all very nice things to have in a pup, it does NOT equal "well bred." It goes way beyond that.


And to make a full circle back to the original post of this thread, I'm glad to hear that Repo is normal and well behaved ... as all we were trying to tell Sharon is that he's a typical puppy from working lines who is exhibiting typical working line puppy behavior, and the reason it takes Sharon by surprise is because, as much as she would like to claim that Savvy works as well as any dog from working lines, he's still show bred, through and through.



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