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PrincessJenni
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My husband is in the military and is being deployed to Iraq very shortly. We have been considering getting a dog, and after doing some research have decided on a border collie, both for its protective nature, as well as its energy. (I run and would like a companion.) My question is this: Should we get a male or a female? The breeder said a male would bond better with me, and since it will primarily be my dog, I should get a male, but part of me had my heart set on a female named Mollie. Is there really a difference in the way the different sexes bond with their person? Any suggestions?

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I hope either way that you will consider rescue first. Both of ours are rescues, young two and three years old and past the no sleep potty training phase. Anyway, our male is easier going and not as moody as our female. Rob definitely is more bonded to me and Briar to my husband Bill. She seems to have her on days and off days. Where Rob just goes with the flow.

 

Please Please Please consider rescue first!

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I second the idea of a rescue. No suggestions, but a question----how did you come to the conclusion that border collies are known for their protective nature? By that, do you mean a dog that will alert or a dog that will do the job of say, a German Shepherd?

 

IMO, protectiveness varies from individual to individual within the breed, but as a breed, I don't think "protective" is an accurate description.

 

Vicki

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Just my two cents, we wanted and got a female BC puppy. I'm not an expert so don't know if a male or female bonds better. When Piper was 4 months, she discovered her "bark", my husband was gone for 2 months working and so Piper learned that she had to protect me from "bumps" in the night and knocks at the door. It was actually pretty funny the first time she barked because it was a big dog bark, someone had knocked at the door and she barked and I think the bark had surprised both of us because it wasn't a puppy bark. During that time I had noticed she had become protective over me and continues to this day when my husband is gone.

 

On the other hand, now we can come home at night from work and she sits at the top of the stairs, her head barely peeking around the door and doesn't move until she sees it is us...so go figure...

 

I think if you have your heart set on a BC named Mollie, go for it! It seems like you have a difficult time coming your way. Mollie sounds like great name for a BC!

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To answer your question, I arrived at the conclusion that Border Collies were protective based on the online research I did. By protective, I do not mean in the same way a German Shephard would be. My research indicated that they make good watchdogs, and they are reserved with strangers. Additionally, the breeder indicated that they are rather territorial. I realize that each dog will have its own personality, and I am fine with that. Again, part of the purpose is companionship.

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Originally posted by PrincessJenni:

To answer your question, I arrived at the conclusion that Border Collies were protective based on the online research I did. By protective, I do not mean in the same way a German Shephard would be. My research indicated that they make good watchdogs, and they are reserved with strangers. Additionally, the breeder indicated that they are rather territorial.

My goodness. I might rethink my decision to purchase from this particular breeder. I wouldn't want to buy a dog that was "territorial" or "protective." In my experience, many border collies do tend to be reserved and not total social butterflies, but I would not be really happy with a dog that was territorial and protective. In fact, I don't allow my dogs to display this kind of behaviour. In my house, I get to call the shots about who is allowed near me and in my house. Not the dogs.

 

I third the idea that you should approach a rescue group. Maybe they can help you select a dog that would be a good fit for your personality and lifestyle.

 

RDM

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Here are some things to keep in mind:

 

Border Collies are alert, but generally are not what I would call "protective." They have never been selected for guarding capabilities and do not take naturally to a protection role in the same way that a German Shepherd or a Doberman might.

 

If you are hoping for a running companion, and you buy a puppy, it will be over a year before you can take that puppy running with you. Puppies and young growing dogs should never be asked to run long distances, especially but not limited to if that running will be done on pavement. It is very hard on the developing joints and can contribute to the development of hip dysplasia or other serious problems later. If you are looking for a real running partner, you are better off adopting a dog at least two years of age.

 

The breeder's advice about choosing genders leads me to believe this breeder may not be very knowledgeable. There is a very general rule (with tons of exceptions) that dogs get along best in mixed-sex pairs, but for you it shouldn't make a difference. I believe there are far more individual differences than systematic differences between genders, in Border Collies. In some other breeds (like Rhodesian Ridgebacks, for example) it is considered very desirable for males to be really macho and females to be really feminine, but these pronounced differences are not found in BCs.

 

Since you have done your research you know that Border Collies need not only physical, but also a great deal of mental exercise. A dog who goes running for several miles a day and gets no mental stimulation aside from that is still going to be a bored and wound-up dog. If you are not planning to work your dog or participate in dog sports it is important to budget in at least a couple of short training/game sessions per day, when the dog is asked to think and learn. Border Collies are very engaged dogs and thrive on training and attention, to the point that many pet owners feel guilty for "only" taking them running and playing fetch with them a couple of times a day. Not everyone feels comfortable living with a dog who always wants more (and when you're talking about raising a puppy, multiply that a thousandfold).

 

If you haven't been around Border Collies much but think they sound like cool dogs, I'd recommend spending some time around Border Collies in their element (working livestock, doing dog sports, being VERY active pets) before committing to one. If your heart is set on a Border Collie, I strongly recommend adopting an adult dog over buying a puppy. There is a range of temperaments to be found in the breed, particularly depending on the type of breeder you go to, and therefore for a first-time owner it is probably best to get a dog who is an adult and therefore a known quantity. You'd get to take the dog running with you right away, pick the one (male or female) whose personality meshed best with yours, and even perhaps find one who is a little more protective than most -- all things you would not be able to predict with a puppy. A good rescue organization will take your needs into account, and match you up with a dog that is right for you.

 

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

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Princess Jenni -

 

Sorry to hear that your husband is shipping out. I can't imagine what you must be going through - at least I know *I* would not handle it well.

 

I'm afraid I have to agree with what everyone has said so far. As the owner of a rescue (got Buddy when he was almost 2) and a crazy, devilish, nutty 12 week old puppy (female) I can say that the rescue is the BEST choice if you are looking for a companion and running partner. Also, my experience with females is this - they don't call them bitches for nothing! Yes, they ARE moody. They can be snotty and bit "sure" or what they want and will or won't do. My in-laws rescued a female who is a DOLL, but when she doesn't want to do something or partake in something she will go and sit in the corner and look at the wall. She will not socialize at all. And she's a snot to train! Moody! Glad she's not mine, haha!

 

Buddy - my rescue boy - on the other hand is a GIANT, loveable, sweet, cuddle bear of a dog. He's just the best dog I've every seen in my life. Some people will not agree, but I really do feel that rescue dogs KNOW that you are giving them a chance and they APPRECIATE you. Maybe they can't - but sometimes it sure seems like they can.

 

As far as the protective thing goes - as an active member of our Border Collie club (over 35 dogs) I have NEVER once met a protectve and or anti-social Border Collie here. Sure, there are times when they may not want to deal with you - but it's usually because they are A) Female and :rolleyes: not interested and C) The product of a crazy owner. :D

 

In general, I've met only BC's that are happy, outgoing, social and drawn to people of all types. Yes, there have been those few "snappy" dogs - but never towards people, only towards other dogs.

 

Protective? Does beating someone down with a wagging tail count? My dogs don't even bark at the door! They just wag their tails. My friend has 7 BC's - first time I went to her house, she wasnt' home - told me to go through the back - what did the dogs do? Barked like crazy animals and then licked me to DEATH when I got in. Protcetive my left foot!

 

Your breeder needs to do some research of his own. Maybe he meant to say that BC's bond well with their owners? I don't know. But those are qualities that I have never head used to describe the breed. Maybe he asked you what you are looking for and that is what you told him?

 

Also - again, you should know...physical activity is NOT all it takes. They really do need a job. Running won't cut it. And if you are wanting a running buddy, I would require Hip/OFA cerfification from your breeder (you should require it anyway as a dog should not be bred unless those hips and other certs are excellant! Along with other things, but we won't get into that.) Also it's true - you won't be doing much running with that dog until 1.5 or 2 years. How will you run with a 3 month old that hasn't had all it's shots? Or a 6 month old that really isn't leash trained?

 

Please consider rescue....please. And you have a better chance of seeing the personality of a rescue dog - male or female. VS. the personality of a 6 or 7 week old pup.

 

 

Denise

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I have to take back the word "protective" when describing Piper Because after reading others posting I realized I used the wrong word. I like how Denise described it "beating someone with a wagging tail and licking to death". Piper is not a guard dog, no way. The times I may use the word "protective" I use it loosely, she may bark at someone on a trail but it is usually tall people that loom over her and I think she barks because it scares her...I try and get those "tall" people to bend down to her level and then I coaxed her over to say hi and then she's down licking their feet...she likes those short people

 

And also yes, a BC-as a pet, needs more than just activity-they need jobs. Piper is a Search and Rescue dog (as there is no sheep here to herd-or any livestock), she gets lots of activity and we play games with her at night. Now that winter is right around the corner, we taught her to roll-over the other night which she does now with just a hand signal. Just had to share that with you all even though it is getting off the topic of "male vs. female".

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When I questioned you about your concept of protectiveness, it brought to mind when my daughter, a jogger, moved to Manhattan and wanted a dog that not only would be a companion, but one that she could jog with while being a protector at the same time. From a house full of border collies in addition to connections that I had if I had to look elsewhere for a border collie, I couldn't justify her taking a border collie for protection. There might be some individuals that might be good as a protection dog, but that's not the norm. Good as companions, good jogging buddies, but protection, no. We wound up getting her a rescue GSD, and while in Manhattan, true to his breed, he proved himself several times over.

 

Now alert dogs! That a whole 'nother story. My border collies sound the alarm. While they're not a "barky" breed, when my border collies bark, I do check.

 

And while I commend you on doing research first---far too many people don't----I've read breed descriptions on the internet that made me choke. I think on these boards, you will, by far, get the best eduction on the breed.

 

Good luck.

 

Vicki

 

P.S. When I would visit my daughter in Manhattan, it was with 3-5 border collies at a time. Her GSD, as should be expected, considered strangers with suspicion. Couldn't ask for a better protector. My border collies, not only thought NYC was great, but they made friends with the junkies in the neighborhood park and looked forward to seeing them on our walks in the neighborhood.

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Jenni,

 

I too am a military wife whos husband is leaveing for Iraq...he goes in January. I my Self just got a BC to have as a buudy and protector for me and my kids while he is way.... Blue is a male who is 1 and 3 months old ans I could not ask for a better furry friend... I don't think it really matters if you get a male or female...bc tend to be very bonded to there owners no matter the sex....I like you just picked the BC that I had my heart set on..... I would like to ask if you are looking in to BC rescues or from a breeder? I got Blue form a local rescue and he is just wonderful!! I at frist was worried about adopting a old rescue dog....but i must say that Blue couldn't fit in better with my family if we would have had him since he was a pup!!!

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"Also, my experience with females is this - they don't call them bitches for nothing! Yes, they ARE moody. They can be snotty and bit "sure" or what they want and will or won't do."

 

As with many personality traits, it varies with the individual. None of our females are snooty, one is a momma's girl (Rae), the other is Renee's pal and loves her attention (Starr), and Gyp is just "busy". Gyp wants to work her way and not my way; but is that being a bitch or just being true to the "stop" on her head. So far none have shown signs of the stereotypical mood swings with their heat cycle. I suspect those that talk about them being bitches have a personal preference towards males or females have gotten that reputation for their reaction to males sniffing them up their butts and wanting to mount them. Renee prefers females because she hates the stereotypical macho male that marks everything; I have no preference.

 

Choose the dog based upon how it?s personality suites you; Renee always picks the ones that want to be with her. I like the ones that are always ready to rough house.

 

Two of our BCs are watchdogs; Duncan feels he should be the pack watchdog and sounds the alarm when he hears a noise he doesn't like. He also sounds the alarm when he thinks he hears me coming home (he's often makes mistakes much to Renee's disgust). I'm not sure any our BCs would be good guard dogs; perhaps Duncan. Duncan has growled at a few people he wasn't sure about; but overall he likes everyone. The rest of ours like everyone or are too timid to be guard dogs.

 

Mark

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I suspect those that talk about them being bitches have a personal preference towards males or females have gotten that reputation for their reaction to males sniffing them up their butts and wanting to mount them.
Not at all Mark. I have no personal preference between either. (YET!) I LOVE that the females I have met seem to be more "cuddly." But as I said in my post - *MY* experience - has shown that the females live up to the "bitch" term. That's all. I'll say that when the girls are sweet - they are sweet, but when they don't feel like it - well, they tell you to screw off. But that's the ones I've seen and been around (probably only 15). I've known 4 females VERY well. (roomies) And am good friends with the owners of 9 females.

 

However, all these folks choose their dogs for their drive and their energy.

 

And, all the females that I have known are usually first to mount most other dogs! :eek: And if they don't then beware the dog that trys to get them!

 

Either way - an older rescue will show it's personality much better than a 7 or 8 week old puppy. You can easily get a bitchy male if the odds are against you.

 

Denise

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We have a male border collie mix who will be two years old in January. I can?t speak to the bonding issue of male vs. female since he?s the only male dog I have ever personally owned. I grew up with female Boston Terriers.

 

He does not seek or give a lot of affectionate attention (doesn?t like to be hugged and is not a major licker). He does like to play and learn things (agility, obediance, tricks) and likes lots of interactive attention (?wanna play fetch? wanna watch me chase the cat? can I chew my bone on your foot??) and when inside the house, he normally is near where I am.

 

As to the watchdog capabilities, Oreo?s bark for people walking dogs on our street, cats contemplating each other next door, squirrels in the tree, the mailman delivering mail and the milkman delivery milk is exactly the same ? supersonic, prolonged and high-pitched.

 

In other words, nothing to distinguish his behavior between a human actually ?encroaching? on our property and other things he notices.

 

Furthermore, when we come home at night after he has been alone in the house, he is peering out between the curtains, slunk down so low on the back of the couch that his face is the only thing showing and he looks like a Jack Russell Terrier. Not a great image of bravery.

 

In spite of that, I think he is an excellent alerter, just not with a lot of discrimination. We love having him around.

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PrincessJenni,

Here's a slightly different perspective. I don't consider any of my border collies as guard dogs, though they will certainly bark (sound the alarm) if anyone comes up to the house (or to my van if we are at a trial). My border collie mix (from a rescue) and my first purebred border collie (also from a rescue) were also jogging partners for me. Realistically I never actually expected them to physically protect me, though I suspect Willow might, so they were with me on early morning city jogs (granted a smaller city--not Manhattan) as a deterrent. This may be what you're really looking for. Most people who wish to do harm to another are going to go for the easy prey, and a woman with a dog (reasonably sized--it needn't be a slavering pit bull with a spiked collar and a heavy chain to deter another person, and yet a little Yorkie isn't likely to make someone think twice....) isn't going to be considered easy prey compared to one without a dog.

 

I know people who have done Schutzhund work with border collies, and this sort of work does include protection. But, on average, border collies are not the dog I would think of if I were thinking strictly of guard dogs. That said, I would think that any dog who is bonded to you and senses that you are in danger will be likely to do somethingin the way of protecting you. However, I also carried mace on my early morning jogs, and practiced all the other commonsense stuff (varying the route I took, etc.).

 

In my experience border collies can be great jogging partners, but as everyone else has said a daily jog may not be enough to keep the dog happy.

 

As for male vs. female that's really a personal preference. I prefer bitches, because I really dislike leg hiking, humping, etc. But somehow I still ended up with three male dogs! My females are no less affectionate, and the jogging partner described above (female rescue) is the most affectionate of any of them.

 

I too will jump on the rescue bandwagon. Consider seriously whether you want the added stress of a pup at a time in your life that is going to be quite stressful already. And an adult (all of my rescues came to me at about 18 months of age) can immediately start jogging or doing other doggy sports. And as everyone else has said, a rescue group will find a dog that is a "right fit" for you (which means you could find a dog who loves to go jogging and is happy chilling out as a couch potato the rest of the time).

 

Anyway, the sex of the dog won't necessarily determine its ability to bond with you--its personality will. Here again it's easier to know what kind of personality you are getting with an adult dog as opposed to a puppy. Only one of my dogs did I get as a puppy, and the adults are no less bonded than the pup (now 2) is.

 

Good luck.

 

J.

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Many of you have mentioned Rescue Dogs, and I think that's wonderful, and I would be totally into that idea under certain circumstances. My motivation in getting a pup rather than a Rescue Dog is my Persian cat. Beast (the cat) is about 9 and one-half years old, and I often joke that it's really his house and he just lets the rest of us live here. I am concerned that if I bring home an adult dog, the two of them may never learn to co-exist in harmony. Have any of you introduced Rescue Dogs to your Lord-of-the-Manor cats, and if so, how did that go?

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As many have pointed out, I think it's a much better idea to assess the individual dog than to go with gender stereotypes when trying to choose between a male and a female. After all, you may end up with the exception to the rule.

 

I have a dog and a bitch. The dog is super-masculine (despite having been relieved of his testicles), super-serious, and a major-league worrywart. Solo is not crazy about strangers, or other dogs most of the time either. I have no doubt that he'd protect me if we were attacked while out jogging, but he also tends to be self-protective when it isn't necessary (i.e., he is paranoid). He thinks he would die without me and I consider him my soulmate. We play complicated thought games and he enjoys gazing deeply and lovingly into my eyes. Solo is almost never silly. I get a kick out of watching Solo hike his leg as high as possible to mark over everything (not where it isn't appropriate, like on someone's garden, of course) and just adore his manly ruff and big burly shoulders. And I never thought I wanted a male dog at all; when I was looking for a dog, I wanted a petite female.

 

After about a year and a half, I got my petite female. My bitch is happy-go-lucky in a typically manic Border Collie fashion and is only "bitchy" when meeting other bitches, when they invariably do the ears-up, "I'm taller than you" thing during the first sniff-over. If Fly had a talk bubble above her head, it would always read, "Yay!" She is extremely busy and always looking for something to do. While she is very bonded to me (she does not even like to walk on a leash, or work sheep, for anyone else), and is superficially very affectionate, she is not as dependent or loving as Solo is. She would rather interact with me playing a game than snuggling. Solo is sometimes like this, but he also likes to snuggle and have his tummy rubbed. Fly merely tolerates having her tummy rubbed. She's always up for a good game and will put up with the tummy rubbing until she can find a toy to throw at me. Her personality is much more like a lot of the goofy adolescent male Border Collies I've known than many of the mature females (she will be five on Christmas). I think she actually wishes she belonged to a twelve-year-old boy.

 

Dogs are individuals. Personally, I have always felt more comfortable taking on an adult dog than a puppy, and have never raised a puppy. Most of the people I know with strong gender preferences have them for reasons other than temperament (like they don't like the leg-lifting that males do, or don't want to put up with heat cycles, or they just like the look of one sex over another). For the vast majority of pet owners I don't think it matters whether they get a male or female, especially if they are only going to have one dog. If a particular sort of personality is important to a prospective owner, then there really is nothing to do BUT adopt an adult dog so you can see what you've got.

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Originally posted by PrincessJenni:

I am concerned that if I bring home an adult dog, the two of them may never learn to co-exist in harmony. Have any of you introduced Rescue Dogs to your Lord-of-the-Manor cats, and if so, how did that go?

I have two old cats and I foster many many dogs every year. The cats just learn to live with it. They do not like dogs, but they know that they live with dogs and that's that.

 

The fact is, your cat will either accept a dog or she won't. It won't matter to her if the dog is an adult or a puppy; it will still be a dog and if she is adverse to dogs, it will still be a problem. If you get an adult rescue that is known to be good with cats, you might stand a better chance at integrating them. Puppies are very annoying to cats who don't wish to play with them, but an adult dog who is happy to ignore cats might be a good choice.

 

RDM

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Jenni:

 

99.9% of all BC's will herd anything that moves and that includes a cat. I have one that doesn't give the cat the time of day and the other that insists the cat stays in it's designated part of the house. Rescue is great because most rescues will let you know if the dog is a cat chaser or could give a hoot.

 

Also ours will sound the alarm at a strange noise or knock, but both are social butterflies and all a robber would have to do is pick up the nearest tennis ball and he will have two new best friends!

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I have a friend (who may respond to this in a moment) who just spent the past year going through puppyhood and had a constant battle convincing her pup not to stare at, chase, or terrorize the cat. Growing up with a cat is no guarantee that a Border Collie will not chase the cat.

 

The rescue I volunteer for assesses cat compatability when placing dogs into homes with cats. Many foster homes for rescues have cats. A good rescue would be more than happy to match you up with a dog who ignores or is friendly with cats, and warn you away from ones known to be bad with cats.

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I'm sure I've posted this before: I have six border collies (actually seven at the moment) and six cats. Five (I think, certainly at least four of them) of the cats were there before any dogs came into my life. Until a little less than two years ago, every dog I brought home was an adult. A kitten was added at one point, a brought in one of my mother's cats after she died, and then I brought in a puppy. All of the dogs have basically learned to leave the cats alone. Even the pup. Jill likes to follow the cats around and stare at them, and she can be a bit obnoxious about it, but the cats do have "safe" areas they can go and the dogs can't (rooms blocked from the dogs with permanent swinging baby gates). I absolutely do not tolerate cat chasing, unless the cat instigates it. In any case, it was no more difficult to teach an adult dog (four of whom were rescues) to leave the cats alone that it was to teach the pup the same thing. And again, behavior around cats has a lot to do with the dog's personality. The seventh dog I have for the time being is absolutely terrified of the cats, but no doubt that will change as she gets used to them.

 

As Melanie said, most rescues note whether the dog has been "tested' around cats, children, and other things as well.

 

J.

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We have a 13 year old female Himalayan cat. We got Oreo when he was 8 or 9 weeks old. I am sure Oreo thought the cat's name was "Leave It!" because that is all he ever heard whenever he was around her.

 

Katie is very laid back and mellow now though she doesn't do anything she doesn't want to do. She was so high strung when younger that our vet in Alaska STRONGLY recommended we get her declawed as well as neutered. She still has a very strong personality.

 

If she holds her ground, Oreo doesn't chase her. If she runs or turns away he is running right behind her. Plus, he is overly fond of her food, before and after she consumes it :mad:

 

Last week they were both sitting next to each other on the back of the couch looking out the window when we came home, so I think they are co-habitating ok. It just took a lot of vigilance on our part, partly because he is still a goofy juvenile male border collie.

 

I think he would have been too much for my Smokey, a gray domestic shorthair, who passed away two years ago. She was quiet and demure and would not have appreciated Oreo.

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I am so glad that I got Sophie as a companion. Even at 16 weeks she is turning into a wonderful friend. At night,she sleeps under our bed, and if anyone gets up and goes to the bathroom, she is right there checking out what is going on. She is great with all the teenagers that hang out here, but also barks when a stranger comes to the door. Somehow she seems to know who is supposed to be here when. She loves children and will play with them for hours, both outside and in the house. My nieces turn her crate into a "house" for her when ever they come over, arranging her toys and treats...she'll run around with them like crazy in the yard, and then come in and cuddle with them playing quietly as they feed her kibble by hand.I am really glad I got a puppy at this time of my life, it has been just what our family needed, though I think I would love to get an adult rescue at some point later... when I chose Sophie from the litter I made sure I got the quietest, most submissive pup, and any of the problems that have croped up ie. fear or submissive urination I have dealt with as they have shown themselves, working on building up her confidence and helping her to become secure in our pack.... so far so good. LOts of work training though...all I can say for advice is read read read everything you can find on the net about bc's and dogs in general. Blackdog farm is the best site I've found for quantity and quality of info.

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oh yeah, and about the cats..we have two neutered males who know how to handle a pup, though they have been caught playing (or is baiting a better term?) with the pup. As much as I think the cats could use a good chase,( they are just SO haughty!) Sophie is being taught to " leave it!" when ever she wants to go "play" with the cats. We got a rescue BC one time years ago that we were assured was fine with cats, and as soon as it saw ours, went totally nuts trying to chase them in the house. It was a nightmare.so I guess there are no 100% guarantees as to how an adult will react with your cat until they are actually together and you can see the dynamics. Personally, and I know there are many here that won't agree with me at all, I would go for the pup if that is what your gut is telling you is the right thing to do.Maybe you can get an adult rescue later when your husband returns...a puppy really will fill your hours so there is less time to worry etc...

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Hi PrincessJenni,

 

I am glad you made it to here from the Runner's World forum. I am also glad you are doing your homework. I did not give you this specific forum site, but I knew, if you were interested in BC's you would get here from the web site I did give you.

 

These guys will give you lots of good advice and it looks like you are already getting a lot of responses. If I get a chance, I will try to give you a specific response. I think the guarding aspect is a little bit iffy, depending, but the deterrent should still be there.

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