Advice please...am I doing the right thing?

[KrisK]

Sorry, this is long but I really need help. Cricket (3 yrs old) is my quirky, fear aggressive BC. I acquired her at 6 months old from a family who should not have had her. She had issues then but I felt she would be alright. We discovered her major problem was severe hip dysplasia which was surgically repaired at a year old. While she was still recuperating, we moved to the country where physically she's doing very well but socially she is lacking.

I decided to take her to obedience classes to help her get more comfortable with other dogs, people etc. Since I know she stresses easily, I was prepared to remove her from class if necessary.

Last night was the first class. In the class - 7 other dogs ranging from a yorkshire terrier to a standard poodle - most are young, about a year old.

To say the least, it was difficult. I kept her a good distance from the other dogs and the instructor explained that she wasn't comfortable with other dogs/people. She was not too bad when everyone was standing still, or doing sits/downs which she did as well. However, the instant someone would move, she was lunging/barking. We were in the class for about 10 minutes when the instructor called her lab to her. The lab was about 2 1/2 metres from us. Cricket lost her cool...and actually managed to nip MY leg! (no blood but a nice bruise today!) We left the class. I walked her around..and we returned for another 10 minutes.

To get to class, I have to drive for an hour. This is after my driving to and from work (total 2 hours) The nearest town where I could socialize her without formal classes is 1/2 hour away but there's no guarantee that anyone will be out walking around (very small town!)

Cricket is wonderful with us and our other dogs. She was great when my daughter & boyfriend were staying with us. She was sociable with my nephew (mind you he had a ball in his hand and they were in the field)

Are the classes too much for her? Should I continue? I'm torn. What should I do...what would you do?

[Tassie]

Kris, it's hard to be sure either way. I'm assuming the class is indoors, not outdoors? In that case, it may not be possible for you to have Cricket the distance away from the other dogs when they are moving, that she needs to be to feel comfortable.

 

Under ideal circumstances, I would be working the dog at a distance where she felt comfortable, and aiming to gradually move her in closer. IMHO, dogs cannot learn if they're in stressful situations, and you end up having them practise behaviors you don't want.

 

Although I'm normally of the "socialise their little brains out" school of thought, it may well be that in your situation, this isn't really possible and/or necessary. Being aware of Cricket's issues, you may be better off just managing them - while taking any opportunities that offer to expose her - at a safe distance - to stressors.

 

Sorry - this is probably not very helpful.

[Barb Scott]

I totally agree with the other Barb! We have a fear aggressive/sound sensitive BC (Dart was also a rescue) that we've had since she was a puppy. I finally decided the stress of classes far outweighed their benefits. She goes with us to the woods and other places where we won't meet other dogs, she goes for onleash walks at the park (where I'm ready to keep other dogs out of her space) and she stays home from dog events. That said, when we got Bryte (Dart's niece), we socialized her at every dog and people event possible.

Barb S

[Shawna]

While I'm all for socializing in classes, it sounds like, as others have pointed out, that this might be too much for her at this point.

 

Does your trainer give private lessons as well? It would be good if she was able to help you work on the fear aggression away from a big busy group. Also, if your dog is that aggressive, you may want to consider a muzzle for her. This would be for HER protection until she could handle being around other people/dogs. It would be a very sad thing if she managed to nip one of those ever present "dog ninnies" who insist on trying to pet a scared dog in spite of aggressive behaviour and pleas from the owner.

 

If you do consider a muzzle, get a basket type that she can drink and pant in. One that you can slip treats into is best. Take at least a week of getting her used to it (two is better) before expecting her to wear it to town. It's a slow process to get most dogs used to a muzzle, but if you do it right they don't bother about wearing it. Some look forward to having it put on because it means a trip out.

[Tammy525]

That sounds way too hard on both of you to me. The private lessons might be ok, if they are in a situation where there is no other dog stimulation. Would the instructor's dog be a good practice/test dog? As in a dog that doesn't react to anything from another dog EVER? Maybe she could bring her dog and they start out very far apart?

 

Or maybe you just have a homebody dog, and that is just the way it is. Too late for socialization? Is it ever too late?

 

Clearly you are very committed to doing what is best for the dog, I am not sure class is the answer.

[KrisK]

Thanks everyone. You've all confirmed what my 'gut' was telling me. Cricket's not ready for this type of situation. She has come a long way and I don't really want any regression.

She loved going for the ride in the car and what was really funny was when we got back home. I had also taken Dusty BA to the class. He waited in the car while Cricket was in the class as she did when it was his turn. Anyway, when we got back home, Cricket and Dusty were 'best buds', wrestling with each other, and generally having a good time. That's not their normal relationship. Usually, they tend to ignore one another. So, maybe there was they were thinking 'OMG, what has she put us through, comrade????'

Anyway, I'll try to get her into a less stressful situation even if it's just going for a walk in town with a handful of treats.

We travel to our summer place so I do need Cricket to be 'reasonably' comfortable when she might be around other people.

Thanks again everyone. It's much appreciated.

BTW, Tassie & Barb..that was so wonderful to see those two miners finally get back above ground! I guess one should never underestimate the 'Aussie/Tazzie' spirit, eh??

[Kitch]

Hmm...well, I guess I'll be the dissenting vote. Granted I don't know your dog or the set-up of the training facility, but I think that one time was too soon to judge whether or not she could handle it.

 

The first training class we had with a lot of people in it was chaos with Dublin. Our previous classes had been with one other person so a class with multiple dogs/people was sensory overload for Dublin. All the barking, untrained dogs really freaked him out. He would bark (he never barks), pant, do the displaced aggression/nipping thing to me (which *really* freaked me out) for the first few times. I was taking the class to get him used to listening to me around distractions (which he now does beautifully in a building/training setting - outside I still cease to exist! ). We had already completed that level of training so the trainer knew that I was just going to be walking around the perimeter, doing my own thing. After the first few weeks Dublin calmed down a lot and by the end of the class he was great. My trainer loved it because she would use him as the demo dog for class. By the end of the class, we used him as a demo dog for agility and he ran a mini course following my hand commands and coompletely ignoring the *still* barking dogs. I would never have thought it possible based on his behavior during the first few classes.

 

 

JMO, but I would give it another shot.

[Woodenlion]

Kris,

I went through this with Cocoa. We finished the class but never made it past the hallway. My girl and I never did pass obedience. I live in the city and she is constantly exposed. Every time we step out the door it is like the very first time. Until she starts to tire herself. While she has improved a tremendous amount (leaves blowing down the street no longer freak her out),I have had to accept that this is the best she is ever going to be. No one is permitted to walk behind her, stand behind her, or go up the stairs behind her. When she wants affection she backs up to me for hinny pats, and greets me at the door holding one of my shoes. And that is all okay. She trusts me and I adore her. She makes me laugh. She's my girl. George, Honey and I love her because of her quirks. Sometimes I think maybe a job and a farm might be the answer for her and I am working toward that goal. Not every dog has to be or needs to be sociable. As long as you know her limits and excercise caution.

Toni

[KrisK]

Hi Kitch, thanks for your insight as well. I suspect Dublin's not quite as 'spooky' as Cricket.

Cricket has had fear issues since she was 6 months old and it took us a long time to have her even stop barking, snapping if someone came into the house. She's better now, although I keep her outside or in the dog room if we have people in the house that she doens't know.

At the class, the instructor, who does know Cricket and her history, came over, gave her a treat which she took nicely. The instructor gave her another treat, reached to touch her...and came VERY close to getting bitten.

My other concern is for the other class members. They have paid for getting classes to train their dogs (okay...get themselves trained). Cricket definitely scared the bejeebers out of one person for sure. A couple of other people were more understanding.

The training room isn't that large - about 14 m x 11 m. so the quarters are a bit close.

I'm going to talk to the trainer again. She did say she thought Cricket would have a 'meltdown' if she were to be heeling in a group. Since I'll be continuing to take Dusty, I may try again with Cricket. Right now, I'm just concerned that she not get more distressed.

It's a struggle to be sure I'm not over-reacting and also not giving up too soon.

[PSmitty]

Kris-I completely understand your situation. Jack had huge problems in a group obedience class. My poor husband got nipped more than once, and the barking/lunging you described is exactly what Jack was doing.

 

A wonderful trainer at the club, who has raised bcs for 15 years, volunteered to work privately with my husband and Jack. They worked extensively on calming exercises, and teaching Jack to focus on us, not the dogs/people around him. He made lots of progress, and was eventually able to finish the class, many months later. He's not "cured" by any means, and he still has a long way to go, but I wanted you to know there is help and hope, if you choose to continue.

 

That said, it really depends on what you want for your dog. I'm very involved in our local training club, and I want Jack to be able to be around other dogs comfortably, and to be able to attend events with us. We'd really love for him to do agility or flyball, I know he'd enjoy it so much. We pushed on with his training because of these goals we have. But on the other hand, if I ever feel it's too much for him, he'll be just as happy and well loved being a "homebody". That's the decision only you can make. And if you're happy and Cricket is happy, then you've made the right one.

[Tassie]

Hey Kris - yes - you can just imagine the relief first of all when the miners were discovered to be alive, and then when they actually walked out of the mine and took their tags off the 'down the shaft' red board at the entrance - quite amazing. Tasmania is a small place - less than half a million people on the whole island, so things tend to become more personal. We're certainly proud of them - rescuers and rescued.

 

Now, back on topic .. I was wondering if you'd come across the Emma Parsons book Click to Calm? It has some great ideas about gradually desensitising a highly reactive dog (Golden Retriever in that case). And it was so nice to hear that the dogs enjoyed their car-ride. I would think if you keep taking Cricket with you, you can maybe do a little bit around the faciity, even if it's not in the class initially. There may be savvy people with calm non-reactive dogs, who might be prepared to wander around at a safe distance for Cricket.

[sandyleew]

My Tazzy has similar problems and after 2 years of classes, she actually seemed to be worse, so I quit taking her. The strange thing about it is that I think the classes actually caused her to become this way. When I first got her, she loved other dogs. I have decided that there isn't any reson why she has to like other dogs. She is a great with my other dog and with all people, so I just don't take her where there will be a lot of other dogs around. If anyone does ever try to approach with another dog, I just explain to them that she isn't dog-friendly.

[PSmitty]

I have decided that there isn't any reson why she has to like other dogs. She is a great with my other dog and with all people, so I just don't take her where there will be a lot of other dogs around. If anyone does ever try to approach with another dog, I just explain to them that she isn't dog-friendly.

Great point, Sandy. I agree 100% with that.

[KrisK]

Hi Barb, I haven't seen that particular book so I'll try to track it down. I know that I have to try to keep myself CALM when she's acting up...but that is easier said than done!

 

Sandy, Paula - I hope I didn't leave an impression that I thought Cricket had to like every other dog. I've never expected any of my dogs to like all other dogs, esp. because I don't have to like all people I really do hope I can get her to be less reactive since it's not just other dogs, but people as well. Quite frankly, I'd be in 7th heaven if she would simply ignore them!

 

I have no expectation that she will become a 'social butterfly', I just want her to feel comfortable and not stressed to the max everytime she gets away from the farm. My other 3 dogs are socialable, so having one that's not, can make travelling interesting.

 

Anyway, we'll keep plugging away. She's still young and she's clever too, so I'm not giving up on her!

[Maralynn]

Kris, If she were my dog, I would probably try a couple more times, but go about it in a different way. Is there anyway you can either show up a few minutes early or stay a few minutes late just to play ball in the building with Cricket?

 

It is such a new enviroment for her, and when you add the combination of people and dogs its probably just waaay more than she is able to handle.

 

Maybe start by playing ball in the building with just one person and dog in the corner. Have a fun 5 minute play session, then before the other dogs arrive, take her back to the car. Come back in for the "down" and "sit" part, and then leave with her before everyone starts moving around. At this point don't ask her to do anything more than she has previously shown she can handle.

 

Your goals for her are alot different from everyone elses goals for their dog, and so she'll probably need to have a little bit different approach to reach those goals.

 

Good Luck!

[PSmitty]

Kris, no you didn't give that impression at all. I totally understand what you're saying. If my Jack could learn to ignore other dogs and people, I'd be in 7th heaven with you!

 

And I know you already know this, but slow and steady wins this race. As I said in my first post, it took months for Jack to be able to stay in the obedience ring with other dogs. And even then, he'd have a couple of good classes, and then a bad one. As our trainer said, "baby steps".

 

Good luck, I'm sure you'll do the right thing for Cricket.

[Northof49]

Kris - the class that you signed up for, is it a beginner obedience class?

 

What I have done with dogs like yours (some we have brought into rescue, others are just people that have been referred to me) is that they go into an advanced obedience class, where the dogs and handlers are well controlled and focused on the work at hand. This way, you are dealing with a class situation that is calmer and much less stressful than a beginner class.

 

We are currently doing that with one of our one rescue dogs. Her foster mom signed her up in a class where they are polishing up for open and utility obedience competition. There are only 5 dogs and since they are so well behaved and schooled, our little rescue just needs to be a distance from them and watch what goes one and learn that it doesn't have to be a scary place. We aren't worrying at this point about getting her doing anything. If she offers a sit, or lies down etc we will reward her, but for the most part she is in away from the other dogs in class and just learning to relax and not be scared. How much time she will actually spend in class will depend on how she does. A few minutes and then out for a walk or back in the car for 10 minutes or so, then back in for a few minutes, etc.

 

Once she has settled in, the foster mom will start asking her for basic things that she already knows at home. Sits, Down, shake a paw, etc. This little girl will continue to be placed in advanced obedience classes, regardless of her own capabilities, because that is where we feel she will do the best. She needs a calm structured training environment, any you can't always get that in a beginner class.

[Lunar]

Has the trainer dealt with dogs like yours before? What do they recommend? What did they say when Cricket lost her cool in class?

 

Zoe is not fear-aggressive, she has other issues, but I contacted the trainer to find out what course of action is usually taken for dogs like her, and how well it usually works. I followed her advice, and she did indeed improve substantially over the 8 weeks.

 

If it were me, and the trainer didn't have more to add to the cooking pot, I'd try it a few more times and see if there was an improvement. The first class is bound to be the worst one - Zoe spent the entire time trying to hide under my chair, shaking. It was aweful.

 

I also second the suggestion of going early and just hanging out in the building.

[KrisK]

Hi again, I really appreciate all the suggestions.

Maralynn - I did arrive a little earlier because we had to drive for an hour to get to the class and I wanted some time to let the dogs stretch. It might be possible to get there early enough to use the training area alone for a few minutes. It's definitely worth checking out.

Northof49 - yes, it's a beginner's class. As for putting her with the advanced dogs - well, I know the dogs who are working on their advanced skills....and they all have 'zoomie' issues. Two of them are springer spaniels who tend to lose their brains every once in awhile so I'm not sure that Cricket would be better off with them. Since it's the motion that really gets her going, the dogs working on jumps, recall, etc. would probably be more stressful.

I was able to hold her attention when the dogs were not moving around, so I think I'll try her with the class again but only when sits/downs are being done. That being said, I do like that idea and will keep it in mind. It might not work for Cricket, but could be the answer for some other dogs.

Two of the trainers I spoke with, think that I should bring Cricket into the class again and use my own judgement about removing her if she gets overly stressed. As I said before, one of my other concerns is for the other participants so I told the trainer that if she has any negative comment about Cricket being in the class, I'll discontinue.

Anyway, we all know there's no quick fix! Cricket's a smart if somewhat quirky girl, so she may come around and find classes to be okay.

Thanks again. It does really help to have comments, ideas from people who know what a special dog the BC is!

[Chris & Casey]

Everyone,

I joined this message board for threads like this. I deal with the same thing with Casey. Only my situation is a little different because I have had Casey since he was a puppy. I thought I was socializing him but as I look back I don't think I did a good job. Now Casey doesn't like men. Women are fine, kids are wonderful. Any man other than me or those who have taken time to get to know him slowly, Casey does NOT like. Recently he even nipped me to try and get at the water meter man.

 

So here is my 2 cents for what it's worth.

I have done some research on how to "cure" fear agression and the best advice I got was to find an Animal Behavoirist. While trainers know a lot and I am not saying they couldn't help, their goal is to teach you and the dog commands. Not to deal with anxiety and fear. There is a post under the FAQ section on this board that may be able help you with some ideas.

 

I believe because BCs are so smart they require so much socialation. I spoke with a lady one time who grew up with BCs as working dogs on their farm. She told me their best dog would stare down the bull but was afraid of strangers.

 

The best thing we can do is love our dogs.

 

Chris

[KrisK]

I have done some research on how to "cure" fear agression and the best advice I got was to find an Animal Behavoirist.

Hi Chris. While I wouldn't argue with that suggestion at all, unfortunately I'm one of those people who live in an area where the nearest Animal Behaviourist is probably 6 hours away and then there's no guarantee that I'd find a good one. I think there are probably alot of us on the boards that are in a similar geographical position.

While Cricket does have issues, I know that she's not as bad as many dogs with fear issues so I'm hoping the path I'm taking with her will work.

BTW, thanks for pointing me to the FAQ section...I forgot to look there!

[Hector]

My first dog Pattycake (that I got when I was age 49) was a Lab-Elkhound-X that came from the county animal shelter. She was 8 months old and totally unsocialized. I didn't know anything about dogs, but I gave her lots of love and attention and she gradually mellowed out a bit. We enrolled in a Community Education basic dog obedience class. We attended twice and it was apparent that she could not handle being around all the other dogs. She wasn't aggressive, but she was so distracted by the other dogs that she couldn't focus on me or the training.

 

So starting with the third week of class and continuing through all ten weeks, I left her home and went by myself. I watched carefully, took notes, and then went home and did the training with no distractions around. It seemed like she was slow to learn but finally the light bulb went on in her head and she started doing everything right. I think it just took a while for her to make the connection that those sounds coming out of my mouth meant that she was supposed to act a certain way.

 

Pattycake turned out to be a strong alpha bitch and she never did get along with other dogs. But that didn't actually make any difference to me, as there was no need for her to associate with other dogs. She lived a long and happy life and we spent many wonderful hours together. She was the best friend I ever had, and even though I now have three great animal companions I still miss Pattycake.