OT: snakes--long

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, here's the story. My landlord came over yesterday with his rottweiler puppy Porsche for some play time with Lark, so we didn't take our usual walk to the pond until nearly dark. Our usual program is that I open the gate and the dogs race out into the field next to the house. When I tell them "go swim!" they take off for the pond and I follow them on down. Usually most, if not all, of them will have gone swimming before I get down there. So that's the pattern we followed last night, only I was even further behind them than usual because my landlord and his fiancee were still talking to me after I let the dogs out.

 

So I finally get down to the pond and I was standing there getting ready to call Lark over to the spot she usually goes in when I noticed a snake in the water directly in front of me.

 

Now I am not someone to run screaming from a snake, but this one made me a bit suspicious, first of all because it was still sitting there right at the edge of the water after 7 dogs had come barreling by, some of whom must have passed pretty darn close since it was right in the spot where several go in.

 

I suspect it was a water moccasin, since it looked like one, given what I could make out at late dusk, coupled with its behavior (not taking off with all the commotion). Because I didn't want the dogs getting involved, I didn't do what I might normally have done, which is prod it with a stick to see if it would open it's mouth, etc.

 

So now I'm afraid to take the dogs back to the pond (even last night I was thinking a dog could've been bit and since I am so far behind them I might not even hear a yelp or any other indication of a problem). We've been walking down there for a swim practically every day for the last year and a half without incident. I have seen some big snakeskins but no actual snakes, because they're probably smart enough to run for their lives when my pack comes blazing through. Am I overreacting by not wanting to take them down there now?

 

J.

[Dixie_Girl]

I think I would find out what it is first. I think you are right about it being a water moccasin. Maybe you could go down there first and make a bunch of noise and splash rocks in the water to scare any off. But, if it was me, I don't think I would take a chance. That is too scary!

[painted_ponies]

Julie -

 

There are lots of nono-venomous water snakes that look so very like water moccasins that it's very difficult to tell them apart.

 

One way, of course, is to see if the snake has an elliptical pupil. Yeah, right. Only the venomous species does, so if you see an elliptical pupil you are definitely too close! :eek:

 

Or, if you can get it to swim away, I've read that the water moccasin will keep its head out of water but a water snake won't.

 

A safer way is to check with your Dept. of Natural Resources or state wildlife people for the distribution of water moccasins in your state. I map-quested you, but since there are 3 Cedar Groves in NC (doesn't that get confusing?) I still don't know where you are. Water moccasins do not exist above a certain elevation - they are swampy lowland dwellers. I know, people around you probably swear there are water moccasins - I grew up in Greenville, SC where everyone was convinced we had them, but we really didn't.

 

One reason I'm not sure you have a water moccasin is that it didn't show you it's cottony mouth and/or make an aggressive move towards the dogs or you. But then again, it might have been cold (cold snakes are lots easier to get along with than warm ones ) so don't put a lot of faith in that.

 

See what the state wildlife people have to say. Oh, and you can try putting flower of sulfur out on the banks - that helps keep snakes away.

[hoku's mum]

That is a hard one. We go through a similar thing here in the CA foothills, but with a different snake, here it's Rattlesnakes. I know that we probably only see a tiny percentage of the snakes moving through here. We decided to get Hoku vaccinated for the bite, try and keep things mowed, avoid any obvious snakes, and hope for the best. We can't keep a 9 month old pup in a bubble on 5 acres. My guess is that there have been snakes in your pond all along. It may have just fed, making it lethargic and unable to move away from your gangs thunder.

Go back and check it out again. Do Water Moccasins move from pond to pond? Maybe it has moved on. They know that your dogs are not a meal, and unless harassed will most likely choose to get away rather then attack. But I know how scary the thought of a snake encounter is. But it is probably even more scary to the snake... ekkkk 7 dogs!!!! And nothing happened that evening, even with it at the spot your dogs usually go swim. Kinda gives me the willy's, though....

 

Kristin and Hoku, too

[nancy]

I'm trying to remember what I was told recently about identifying a water mocassin. The gist was that most of what gets called that is just an ordinary water snake. Agressive but not poisonous.

 

Aha Water mocassin.

 

Note how thick the body is. Looks like it's already eaten something significant. If the snake doesn't look "too thick". it's not a mocassin.

 

Of course, it's best that dogs leave any snake - or turtle alone. Fergie got seriously snapped at yesterday by a really big (not snapper) turtle.

[juliepoudrier]

Painted_Ponies,

Thanks for the ideas. I know what you mean about people swearing things exist in our area. My landlord tried to tell me we have rattlesnakes, but the only place I've ever seen a rattlesnake was in the mountains. But I am familiar with moccasins--if you ever want to see loads of them, just go fishing on the lower part of the Chickahominy River in VA!

 

If I had been by myself I would have tried to get it to move, but you know how it goes when you have 7 dogs with you--if that "stick" started swimming, I could see several of them trying to grab it! What aroused my suspicions, besides its looks, was the fact that it stood its ground, despite the commotion. As far as I know that is the hallmark of a moccasin vs. a regular water snake (as in most sensible snakes get the hell outta dodge when they sense danger--and I would think 7 running dogs would qualify as danger).

 

Had it been our normal walking time, I might have been able to see pupils (though you're right, that's getting MIGHTY close), but it was nearly 9 p.m. and so close to dark. FWIW, this is a pond with a swampy area on one side and woods on three sides. I did some searching on the Internet but didn't find a whole lot about their habits (like are they more likely to be seen closer to dark) because I do find it odd that I've not seen a snake around this pond before.

 

I'll definitely ask the state wildlife folks about distribution--great idea!

 

Nancy,

It was thick-bodied and not particularly long. I hadn't considered lethargy brought on by eating, but I still think a snake would move away from all that noise and activity (the only other snake I've seen that didn't "run" from "danger" was a copperhead).

 

I will go back and look today, but I sincerely doubt it will still be there (unless it's dead!) since this is the first snake of any sort I've seen in all this time. But the pond is full of frogs, small turtles and the like and is a favorite hang out for herons (and the occasion human fisher), so it would be a logical place for a snake to look for a meal....

 

I just don't want the dogs tangling with something they shouldn't. At least the nearest emergency clinic is just half an hour away, whereas it was an hour away when I lived in E. City (surrounded by the Dismal Swamp and where I saw plenty of snakes, but nothing I would have called a moccasin).

 

J.

[muggs]

We do have water moccasins here, and I don't think you're overreacting at all after seeing someone get bitten by one. But I agree that water snakes can be mistaken for water moccasins especially in bad lighting. I've run into a water snake every now and then that holds it's ground. If it were me, I'd have to hang out and try to get a good look at it (sans dogs) - very carefully I might add. Snakes are also very territorial - do you see many of any particular variety lately? The other day I went out our front door behind Colby, reached back to grab the handle, and grabbed a snake that was wrapped around it. I felt a bite and was scared to turn around and see what kind it was - whew...black thank goodness.

[Beth G]

That is scarey. Yeah I'd be afraid of my dog landing on one. And if a dog did land on one, might the snake bite? I'm not very knowledgable about snakes. But I think they might if startled and think they have to defend themsleves.

 

I have heard that snakes will try to avoid confrontations but sometimes if dogs arent paying attention they can still cause a confrontation inadvertantly, or some dogs even go after snakes, like my last dog( a jrt mix).

 

So yeah I would be afraid to go back there too. Which is a shame as it sounds like your dogs really enjoy swimming there.

 

But I agree that checking with your Dept. of Natural Resources or state wildlife people for the distribution of water moccasins in your state is a great idea. They might also have some tips or other info that can help you.

 

Like maybe hopefully, the snakes only come out like that at certain times of the year or to breed, and maybe they will disappear again...?

 

Good luck!

[juliepoudrier]

Muggs,

I am normally a sensible person, but I think that would have FREAKED me out!

 

J.

[Jack & Co.]

Julie, I would agree with our other NC folks and our SC neighbor about it possibly being a water snake. Water snakes are big-bodied with a nasty personality to match so I don't think I would want the dogs to take a stand against one. They were quite common in Lee County, where we came from, and along the Deep River. (I would have thought that Elizabeth City and the Dismal Swamp would be the place to see water moccasins.) Copperheads are what we see in Cabarrus County. My experience with snakes has been that they are eager to get away from you, but just don't block their path or corner them!

[muggs]

The feeling was not good! But it would have been funny to see someone's face coming to the door for a visit. It was after a bird's nest on a light fixture. Recommendation: don't let birds nest on your house.

[juliepoudrier]

Yeah, I had to chase a black snake off my front porch last spring. I think it was after the finches that had nested in the Boston fern.

 

Now I spend more time chasing the sheep off the front porch....

 

J.

[muddy bob]

Good god!

One of the reasons I live here is that there are not horrible venomous snakes. I am not afraid of snakes in general just the ones that could kill me! I suppose you grew up with it so you just deal with it.

Some folks from Florida told me a funny story. They looked out in the yard when daylight was waning and saw what looked like a snake biting the dog in the rear. The man, frantic, yelled for his wife, shouting that a snake had the dog. Upon closer inspection, it was discovered the dog was trying to pass a plastic bread wrapper!

By the way I thought that "snakes-long" referred to the length of the snake, not your story.

 

muddy

[Nik]

Well...call me C-H-I-C-K-E-N!!!!! I probably would have passed out. My dad took me boating on the river behind our old house a few years ago and backed me up into a forrest of trees full of Moccasins. I DON'T like snakes and probably wouldn't take the chance until you get rid of it completely, but that is me.

 

As bad as I hate to admit something like this, I probably would have ran and left the dogs at that point, out of being panic stricken and not because of lacking concern. Although I hope if I were put in that situation my sense would overcome my panic.

 

If you go back by yourself just make sure that you have someone w/ you just in case. Hopefully you will find it and just be a non-venomous snake.

[Beth G]

Muggs- Wow that's awful. Glad you are ok and that it wasn't a water mocassin.

[iluvlucy]

I would take my gun with me for a few days.

 

Cottonmouths are really mean when they feel bad and i think they wake up with a headache every morning.

 

you can also tell a poisonous snake by the shape of its head. If the head is triangular its poisonous. Thats the venom glands sticking out.

[juliepoudrier]

Well I walked down there yesterday evening by myself and didn't see anything all along the front edge of the pond (other than a bunch of paw prints). Since there's no way I could explain to the dogs why we weren't going swimming anymore and it's one of the highlights of their day, I decided to just go ahead and take them down there. I will keep a snakebite kit on hand just in case, but I decided if we haven't seen a snake but once in a year and a half, the odds are in favor of not seeing one again any time soon.... Plus I figure it's better if we just keep disturbing the area around the pond if we want critters to stay away.

 

Thanks for all the advice!

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Originally posted by baby bc lover:

Cottonmouths are really mean when they feel bad and i think they wake up with a headache every morning.

 

you can also tell a poisonous snake by the shape of its head. If the head is triangular its poisonous. Thats the venom glands sticking out.

LOL, I think you're right. A popular descriptive phrase around here for a really hateful person is to say he's "meaner than a cottonmouth moccasin in a mason jar."

 

But IME so are most water snakes, which can flatten their heads so they look triangular. It's a form of mimicry, the same way hog-nose snakes can look like a cobra. I've always wondered about that, though, since hog-nose snakes and cobras don't live even on the same continent. :confused:

[prosperia]

I've been chased out of the river and up on the bank by a water moccasin before. They are extremely territorial and will NOT back down, especially if there is a nest nearby, which I suspect was the case with that particular encounter. Good thing about them is that you can usually see them coming if you pay attention. We've got a ton of them here in the Mattaponi and the Pamunkey.

I dont know what to tell you, except (and maybe this isnt such good advice, but its the only thing I can think of) but if you can get it to come after you. . up on the shore and promptly remove its snappy little head! :eek:

[BustopherJones]

I had to chase a black snake off my front porch last spring

It is best not to take a Black Racer for granted. It is true that they are not poisonous; but they have a really bad attitude, are extremely aggressive, and have a very nasty bite. Up here, we have to be particularly careful about these snakes around wood piles, especially if moving one.

[silhouettestable]

Here's another thought (and this applies to all snakes,whether poisonous or not). There are other factors (besides aggression) that can affect a snake's normal responses. Being cold-blooded, temperature affects snakes and cool temperatures can make them lethargic. Also, when they are preparing to shed their skin there is a milky fluid that passes between the old skin and the new and it clouds their eyes, thus reducing their vision. If you're close enough, or pick up a non-venomous species, you will be able to see how cloudy the eyes are. Snakes usually tend to remain hidden at those times, but if it was out basking in the sun and the dogs surpised it, it may have remained frozen in place to try to avoid detection.

 

Where I live there are no venomous snakes, but we do have the Eastern hognose and it is often mistakenly called a puff adder and killed. They are becoming rare and just a few weeks ago I stopped a couple of neighbours from trying to stone quite a large one that they found coiled up and basking in the sun. I think that the hognose is actually a very interesting species, they way they first hood their neck like a cobra and put on an aggressive display complete with vibrating tail like a rattlesnake. If feigning aggression doesn't work they give up and play dead, rolling over on their back, going through "death throes" and letting their tongue hang out of their open mouth. They're pretty good actors for a very harmless species.

 

However, all that being said, seeing as you DO live in an area with venomous snakes, I'd be playing it safe. Checking with the Ministry of Natural Resources (or whatever you call it there) is a great idea. They should be able to give you more information.

[iluvlucy]

my brother lives in south texas. his little poodle was bitten by a rattler. a 5 lb dog has no chance. although they tried to save it, it was to no avail. snakes that are poisonous are so deadly.

his neighbors dog was bitten in the head saving his master, now you can see all the bones on that side of his head even tho the skin has grrown back over the bite site. now rosie is the queen of the street for saving her master's life.

another great dog story

gwen