Characteristics of working families

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I'm not sure if I'm having deja vu or Oldtimer's Syndrome or what, but I think I've posed this basic question before (perhaps even more than once!). However, I'm unable to locate previous or related threads here or in archives of Sheepdog-L or on workingsheepdog. So perhaps I'm using the wrong search words or something. Apologies if I'm being redundant with this topic!

 

I'd like to learn about general traits of various working families, if that's not an inappropriate/politically incorrect subject to discuss in a public forum? I'm very interested in learning what type of working styles (strengths/weaknesses) are "typical" in various lines or descendants of well-known dogs. I'm also interested in any health issues that may crop up in those families, as well as temperament--both as applies to working and to live with. Finally, I'm also curious about the physical "type" of dogs in certain families; for example, large, small, solid, finely-built, etc.

 

I know this is a hugely broad question. I'd love to learn more about influential dogs so anything that anyone would like to share will be of interest to me. Examples of specific dogs that appear in a lot of pedigrees of contemporary successful trial dogs would be ##Spot and ##Wisp, ##Sweep, etc...plenty of other dogs, of course but these are perhaps "no-brainers" for a starting point? I also see on Derek Scrimgeour's site that he says his Ben was the most popular stud dog in England in 2003, but as yet I haven't seen his name coming up in pedigrees. I don't know if that's because those dogs are still pretty young or there aren't many in the US or it's just that I haven't found out who is related to who, but as has been discussed on this board, a "popular" stud does have some influence on the breed (at least if his offspring turn out and they breed on).

 

If anyone could contribute to what might be "typical" characteristics of specific working families, I would love any input. I hope this is in the right forum, and that this is an ok subject to discuss? If there is a previous thread that I could be directed to (even on the groups lists), please let me know. I have some books as resources, that either specifically study pedigrees/dogs, or at least touch on them:

 

Blue Riband (Carpenter)

Lifetime w/ Working Collies, Album of Fame, BCs in NA (Allen)

Working BC (Quarton/Presberg)

Principal Sheepdog Lines 1 & 2 (Goutte)

Sheepdog Ch. of NA (Byrne/Harley)

BC Studies (McCulloch)

 

I would also very much like other resource suggestions. A few books which have been on my "to buy" lists for a while include:

 

Key Dogs (Grew)

Sheepdogs/Masters (McCulloch)

Sheepdogs/Faithful Friends (Halsall)

Nat'l Sheepdog Champs (Carpenter)

 

I think Key Dogs is a clear "Must Have" and probably the Carpenter book, but I'm not sure if the other two titles cover the subject I'm interested in.

 

In closing, I want to mention that I'm well aware that even full siblings can be quite different to each other, but I also know that generalizations about lines and certain combinations of lines are also true. The generalizations or "often" or "usuallys" of what lines/combinations of lines are what I'm looking for.

 

I know this is a really long message...thanks to all who've made it all the way through and for any suggestions!

[bcollie]

This won't answer all your questions but this site http://www.bcdb.info/ has some very interesting statistics about key dogs, number of pups, etc.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Thanks to those of you who responded privately, and thanks for the link, Geri. I already had it but it is a good, interesting resource!

 

Is this some sort of "taboo" question which "shouldn't" be discussed? Were my questions too vague for people to know the answers...or too specific by having named dogs? I did get a few PMs, but I find it rather surprising no one else has anything to contribute. :confused:

[Liz P]

No one likes to talk about specific dogs or bloodlines on a public forum just in case someone takes offense. People are much more open about the subject if you talk to them privately at a trial or on the phone.

[Wendy V]

Personally, I couldn't get through the length of the post. However, assessment of the traits of working dogs is subject to opinion only, opinions which can inform or mislead. I have found it to be more helpful to watch the work of as many dogs as possible and draw my own conclusions.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

"How long is a string?" It's too big a subject. Plus, opinions, as Wendy pointed out, are highly personal. It's not so much because it's "taboo" as, lines have such a wide variation that what might work well for one person won't for another.

 

That's why there's no sustitute for working your dogs (not just one), getting a notion of your own of the style/type of dog that suits you best (or a range thereof), and then finding out what lines yield thse characteristics. Plus attending trials, spending time in the company of trusted mentors, and doing hard labor with the stock you intend to work with most - not to mention other stock, too.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Thank you for your replies.

[Black Watch Debatable]

[You call that a long post...? THIS is a long post! ]

 

My $.02:

 

There's a scene in Eminent Dogs... where Donald McCaig is in Scotland, working his newly-purchased Gael alongside Perry MacKenzie and Don, Gael's famous sire. The dogs are pressing a packet of rams together, and Don's owner boasts, "Nothing to worry about. No MacKenzie's Don bitch ever gripped a sheep."

 

Back home in Virginia, McCaig discovers that Gael's lack of a grip is a drawback, not a virtue. Strengths and weaknesses...

 

Catch them under the right circumstances, and people love to talk or write about dogs' characteristics. (See McCaig's book, above.) I hear more about dogs representative of this or that current breeder/trainer ("Bobby Dalziel's dogs") rather than talk of "a Bosworth Coon type." The Halsall book is a rich mine of informed opinion. There's a copy for sale on eBay at the moment. Articles and handler interviews in The Working Border Collie Magazine and the International Sheepdog News often bring up an individual dog's characteristics: whether a Nursery or Finals winner was "a natural driving dog," "the calmest pup I ever knew," "a late bloomer," "wide-running," "most stubborn/most biddable I ever trained," etc.

 

John Atkinson has some opinions on the characteristics of, yep, Bobby Dalziel's dogs (whom he likes and breeds to) in the "Gossip" section of his website.

 

None of any of this should be considered gospel.

 

 

IMHO, if you're looking for a dog, the old UK ?line,? with all its outcrosses and exceptions to the rule, is going to be less important than the specific traits that suit you and your situation: the traits you'll be looking for in your prospective pup's parents.

 

This thread made me think of a checklist I'd use [and have used, actually] to rate a future prospect:

 

*Sire (or dam, or both) must be a full-time working ranch dog, able and willing to work all day. One or both of the parents should be trialing in Open with some success.

* Sire (or dam, or both) should be able to work cattle and work them decently.

*Both parents should have a ready, coolheaded grip and the brains/presence/guts to move stubborn stock [with as little drama as possible].

*Both parents should have lots of natural balance.

*Both parents should have the instinct and initiative to be able to work out of sight of the handler.

*Both parents should be so keen, you'd need a crowbar to get them off stock, if it weren't for

*Biddability. (I like a good listener. Not a soft dog, just one that remembers I exist and buys into the whole "teammate" concept.) A super keen dog may take a while to come into its own in this regard, so it may be enough to know that the parents have never worn shock collars (A legitimate concern these days, unfortunately.)

 

Beyond this, parents should enjoy good health/hips/eyes/hearing.

 

Stylish on stock? I couldn't care less. The best dogs I've had have been plain, upright workers.

 

Re: temperament --- the working bloodlines I know produce perfectly sane dogs, though some are more quirky than others. (John Templeton's Roy was famously friendly. Glyn Jones' Bracken was (in)famous in the neighborhood for biting passers-by. My first dog was a granddaughter of both, and the friendliest dog that ever lived --- but I suspect that had more to do with her early, intensive socialization than her DNA. Temperaments can be shaped.)

 

 

I will confess to a strong coat-length and color prejudice: slick coats only, b/w or tri, without a lot of white. Up ears preferred but not necessary Size? Under 40 lb, please.

 

And the thing of it is, I'll bet that here in North America you could find a dog fitting the description above with just about any "key" UK sire in its pedigree.

[juliepoudrier]

Great post Luisa. I would like to second the idea that discussion of lines is all in "the eyes of the beholder" and your best bet is always to see dogs working for yourself.

 

J.