Jump to content
BC Boards

Questions


Recommended Posts

BTW, the fact that you might be willing to spend 3 years training, herding, and trialing with you dog only indicates that you should definitely wait that long to even consider breeding.

 

you cannot go and prove ability and benefit to the breed after the fact.

 

If you think think these answers are rude (when they are merely honest), try spending some time at your local shelter. See how "rude" it is that so many dogs and cats are killed (no euphamisms here) because too many people decide to breed their pets. Not just puppies and kittens, but older pets that turned out to be inconvenient for those enthusiastic buyers.

 

Had even one photo been of the dog herding, instead of being cute, you might have a leg to stand on. Or had you read the post that you were directed to read first before posting.

 

All you offer is that the dog is in puppy class, is cute, has unusual coloring, and likes to wear costumes. And you ask about breeding. What did you really expect for answers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 63
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Plain and simple, the purpose of the border collie is its ability to herd. Any deviation from that is less then the definition of one.

 

Your border collie wouldn't be the dog she is today if everyone started breeding based on anything else besides workability. Not all BCs 'work' as well as others, but to keep the standard, you breed only the best.

 

Who would want a watered down BC?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a bit confused on this whole issue. I'll be honest. When I started looking for my bc, I had no clue what questions to ask in regards to working ability. In fact, it wasn't until after joining this board (after I got my pup) and more recently getting into herding that I understood why the breeder I went with talked more about Sienna's parents working history and registering with TBCA rather than AKC. I did my research and knew what owning a border collie meant, and knew I really liked the red and white ones. Shallow as that may seem, I think most BC owners can relate to that, even on this board.

 

So where I get confused is purists on this board feel the border collie should only be bred for its working ability and pups should only be acquired from respectable breeders, mostly found at various trials across the country? I'd say the majority of the people on this board didn't get their bc this way. Not all pups out of a litter are going to be superstar Open dogs or meet the demands of a true farm/ranch dog. So does this mean every owner of a fantastic agility/obedience bc, masterful fly ball bc, fulfilled companion bc or (in the rare, unfounded case) couch potato bc is harming the breed too? If that's the case, I think a lot of people on this board might be offended because they don't "work" their dogs by means of herding. Maybe their bc has never even seen sheep but are completely happy dogs... are they a threat to the breed as well?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by r b m:

So does this mean every owner of a fantastic agility/obedience bc, masterful fly ball bc, fulfilled companion bc or (in the rare, unfounded case) couch potato bc is harming the breed too? If that's the case, I think a lot of people on this board might be offended because they don't "work" their dogs by means of herding. Maybe their bc has never even seen sheep but are completely happy dogs... are they a threat to the breed as well?

Does no one at all read the sticky at the top of the board?

 

Same advice for you Richard. I'll even save you the trouble and quote the relevant bit for you (though I do suggest you go read the whole thing):

 

Border collie owners who don?t use their dogs to work livestock are not second-class citizens. Because border collies have been bred for a very demanding job, they have the physical, mental and emotional traits to be good at almost anything a dog can do. They generally don?t make good pets for people who have little interest in a dog and little time to spend with it. But for people who are prepared to devote a lot of time and attention to their dog(s), border collies can be excellent companions, and excellent partners for a variety of activities, both formal and informal. If you love your border collie, and give him/her a good home, you are doing right by your dog. Just leave the breeding to those who do train and work their dogs on livestock, and who have the knowledge to breed to the working standard.

 

RDM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to give you the shortest answer possible. After she has been trained on sheep, won some trials and had all her health clearences come back to the boards and ask that same question. It can't be answered now, no matter how you look at the issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RBM, this comes from someone who has show bred dogs and is completely and utterly in love with them so I'm not a purist of the breed by any measure here on the board.

 

Having said that, it's not about the individual dogs which are probably owned by the majority of the people here and for whom are mostly companions and not working dogs. It's about the breeding of said dogs that almost everyone agrees on in that a dog should add something to the gene pool before being bred. Being cute (or fluffy) or even being great at sports really should not be the reason to breed a dog.

 

Alot of people, myself included, also tend to look for others who have Border Collie's once they have them and thus people who have gotten their dogs from different sources congregate, learn, and then attempt to help others despite having perhaps made choices they wouldn't make now. I can't say that I would not want my dogs again were I to do it over again as I adore them, but if I were to purchase another Border Collie, I would seek a good working dog breeder.

 

So, it's really fine if your (or my) BC does not work sheep or have any drive..he can be the best couch potato ever and have a fluffy butt (as mine do)..you (we) just shouldn't breed him/them.

 

Maria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A dog should not be bred just because. There are too many in rescue, euthanized or running the streets now. A dog should be bred to better the breed when it comes to herding. If you are more into AKC then maybe you should be discussing this on an AKC board.

 

My dogs are flyball dogs. They are all spayed/neutered. My bc is a year old now and was spayed when she was 6 months. She comes from an accidental litter (her mom comes from nice stock from what I hear). Anyways, Tempe is actually afraid of sheep. I am planning to try her again when she is slightly older. She has nothing to make her breed worthy and never did...

People are not being rude they are honest. They just don't sugarcoat responses. Don't take responses personally...

 

RDM has the right to say what she wants and how she wants. She is one of the many rescuers on this board who dedicates a lot of her life to rescuing all the bc pups out there. She knows what she is talking about since she has seen it for a long time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with all of you. My border collies came from a breeder, they are beautiful and they are doing WONDERFUL at agility/obediance/frisbee with the oldest one being almost 2 years old (BRAG,BRAG) BUT they were both neutered at 6 months of age, no questions, no doubts. Sure, their pups would be beautiful, but I am not a breeder. There are WAY TOO MANY in the shelters to do it. There are WAY TOO MANY people out there who don't spay/neuter to supply us ALL with border collies. Just look at Petfinder or in you local newspaper everyday.

 

Assume you breed your dog. You have a litter of 6 or 7 pups and now have to find homes for them. You've never bred before, so it's most likely that you'll have a hard time selling them to "BC People" and whoever comes up with the $100 is probably going to end up with them, then what? What if 6 or 7 people don't show, will you put them in a shelter, keep them yourself? I myself would have a very hard time finding 6 or 7 people who could handle this type of dog.

 

I don't think anyone is being rude, it's just such a sad sad thing to know that puppy mills and irresponsible owners are cranking out the pups faster than they can be adopted. Plus all of the folks who think they are "smart and pretty", pick one up from someone in the paper (who shouldn't be breeding anyway), then see they can't handle the dog and then there's another one in the shelter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you RDM for your response to Richard. It never ceases to amaze me (why, I don't know--you think I'd be quite used to it by now) that the person looking for justification from this group for breeding his/her non-stockworking dog goes away mad when s/he doesn't get the answer s/he wanted to hear and then invariably someone else comes along and makes the same comment Richard made. Why can't the readers of these threads distinguish between breeding and owning?????

 

*No one* on this thread or any similar thread has ever said that the dogs shouldn't be owned by anyone who has a true interest in them. Many times people here have stated quite clearly that where/how someone got their dog before becoming more educated about the breeding issues facing border collies is never held against the dog or the human after the fact (IOW, making a buying mistake does not make you or your dog a second-class citizen--it just means you need to be educated and then perhaps you'll go out and educate others). What you will hear us say, time and again, is don't breed if you don't understand the intricacies of the real work these dogs do.

 

Why? Because the reason you admire/love border collies (primarily because of their energy and intelligence) is a *direct result* of years of breeding that selected for excellent working dogs, nothing else. Change the selection criteria to something else, and you ultimately change the dog. I would hope that any border collie owner can see how breeding for something other than what these dogs *have been bred for* over the years can result in dogs that are not the same dog you love so much today. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

 

(Oh, and it's just a matter of time before someone else comes along to tell us that all things change and we "working purists" can't stop it so why get all bothered about it? Change is good and it won't hurt the breed because so few people use these dogs for their original purpose anymore, whereas breeding for flyball or agility--in candy colors, please--is where it's at. And if you can't go with the flow, then maybe you need to find another breed to "save.")

 

Well, okay I saved whomever from having to go there by already posting that lame argument....

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a BC that I got to compete in Agility with (as well as other reasons, but that was a big thing). NOTHING is wrong with that. But if I even thought of breeding her - THEN we have a problem. Same with flyball, even Conformation! As long as you are not BREEDING the dog - it really doesn't matter.

 

It only matters what the dog has done if you plan to breed them. Because I wasn't planning on doing much trialing (herding trials I mean) with her, she was spayed as soon as I would allow for health reasons. Get her instinct tested (aka, put her on sheep), wait a few years, get her health checked, THEN ask about breeding. You don't even think about breeding a dog until they are at least a year or two so you really know their temperament.

 

Of course, as RDM said, all of these points are covered in the "READ THIS FIRST" section. And it isn't called that for no reason. Of course f you want to raise a litter or foster pups, you can do that! Just contact a rescue center and they can help you out.

 

Also, the more I read this thread - the more I see that we are all making the same great points! Just over and over again using different words. You have seen our argument - and if you still don't like it, well, to bad because at this present time, I think this is all you will get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whinny, you started your post to the board with the following comment: "Ok, before I even ask, I know a majority of you are going to say no..."

 

It took me a while to shake off the feeling that I had walked into a den of vipers when I introduced myself here, but quickly saw the light.

 

The dominant understanding that most of us on this board share is that the ONLY reason to breed a border collie is to perpetuate the genetic characteristics that have made the dog 'good of its kind'. The border collie exists to herd.

 

If you breed the dog because of its kinky ears or fluffy butt or cute speckles you are selecting for secondary characteristics that do not have a direct correlation to the complex abilities in their entirety that make a Border Collie what it has been bred to be. The AKC and back yard breeders continue to do their damage.

 

The people here are alarmed and abrupt because you do not yet understand this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Julie and RDM, sorry, I'm sure I gave it a glance when I first joined, but haven't memorized it. But I'm glad you pionted me to it. I've gotten the overall vibe by reading and participating in this forum every day for the past year or so. My dog is spayed and I have no interest in ever breeding. So I was just confused on ownership vs. breeding and am glad to read that this subject doesn't infer to some crazy idealistic world where border collies are only found on farms and money grows on trees.. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree, RDM does make a good point. She should know. After all, She is in rescue. She sees the horrors of irresponsible breeding, everyday I am sure.

 

When I was a 10 yr old girl I too wanted to "Breed dogs". German shepherds to be exact.

 

But the more I researched into it, the more I realized the horrors of dog breeding.

 

I realized it is at the exspense of the dog- to some point- no matter how responsible a breeder you are.

 

Now before anyone that breeds get angry with me, let me explain why.

 

Even if you do everything right from the proper testing and feeding, to finding the perfect home for those pups, things unforseen can happen to that do later down the road. It can be given away later.

 

I just think that there are too many homeless dogs out there to add more. (But this is just my opinion)

 

If all breeders stopped breeding right now...do you realize that there would be dogs still be loooking for homes a year or years from now??

 

I personally know of several dogs that are 2yrs old or better, and have lived almost their ENTIRE lives in a pound. Man's best friend deserves better than that!

 

BTW- I had both my pups spayed and neutered at 4 mos old.

 

OK I'll step down off my soapbox now. I'm strongly for spaying and neutering. So I will leave the breeding to those much more knowledgable than I.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too bad dogs dont have just 1 or two pups. No, they have many. And there's a real good chance that some of the litter wont have very happy lives. And for every new puppy that gets a good home, that one less potential home for a shelter dog.

 

I've seen so many great dogs on shelter websites and at the local shelters here that my next dog will definitely be a rescue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes rescues are the best. I've had a bunch. Mostly mixes but also an ex-racer greyhound.

 

My husband actually got my BC for me, after we had to put down my 11 yr old rescued lab/cocker/ jack russel mix.

 

He knew I wanted a very energetic frisbee and fetch dog, and good companion as I am disabled, and home all day and plus I love to train dogs.

 

And though I was BC ignorent when we first got Poppy I am quickly catching on. :rolleyes: (He is alot like my old dog!)

 

And I'm determined to do the best by him. And learn as much as I can about the breed.

 

(We later rescued Pepper who was so sick and neglected. I got her for my hubby as he quickly grew to love the breed after we got Popcorn).

 

The main reason I joined this boad back in March was so I could be a good BC owner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to mention is is dangerous. When you breed, you have to be ready for whatever comes at you. Including the death of the Bitch and pups. They say an 80% survival rate is great - that means that in most litters (even if you are the best breeder on earth) you will have at LEAST one death. That is a lot to take. So while asking yourself all kinds of other questions, also ask "is this really worth my dog's life?".

 

Just another point. BTW, very good points Beth G.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks.

 

I just don't think I could ever breed even if I knew everything.

 

I am the kind of person that would want to track EVERY puppy through his or her WHOLE life, and would never be able to trust anyone but myself to do right by that dog.

 

I would worry if that dog was eating enough, the right quality food, getting enough excercise, if they had enough love, toys, brushing, all their shots, was spayed or neutered.... and on and on....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have this to say...

Whinny is a beautiful pup. but if you are looking to breed on her beauty alone, that is just horrid. awful. mean.

think about it this way. If she is breed for her colors. every puppy she has is stealing a home from a puppy in need. there is no two ways about it. I see so many BC's in need of homes because somebody thought their dog was cute and wanted a litter or two of them. if you are going to breed her for her looks you are sentencing a shelter pup to death.

This is a harsh way to look at it, but in the long run it is true. you'd be no better then a puppy mill.

i will add a story of my own. I am not equating you to the people in this story as they are plain white trash. I see red when I think about what they did.

~~~> i rescued a pure bred choc. lab boy. at six months of age. this dog was so skinny and wormy and pathetic. i told these people that i wanted to have their puppy. and they let me, on the condition that I give him back WHEN i didn't want him anymore. I ended up rehoming this sweet lil guy about 5 months later. he went to live his life out on a tree farm. and he got nutered!!

about two months ago his old owners came up to me asking if i knew where is was at, as they wanted to bred him with an AKC lab that lives next to them! I asked them why? why do you want to bred him? there answer was. Because he is good looking and so is she. we want one of his puppies... at this point I had had enough. they had treated him SO BADLY. got a pit after that attacked the husband and child and got rid of her.. and now they wanted to BREED?!? this poor lil man.. I had enough, so I let them have it.

if they had bred him, that would be that many more WORTHY dogs that wouldn't find a home, because they are SHELFISH!

once again, please remember I am not attacking you. I am attacking the IDEA of recreational breeding. its stupid and shelfish.

I have two mutts and I love them both. just because they aren't not full bred and great looking, doesn't mean they are great pets! ~ but that is all they are... they will never work stock. the most will be agility, because neither have the sheep drive... because somebody breed their dog carelessly, YES the breed now is even more watered down! I would NOT buy a full bred B/C. because I have no plans to have or work stock. but if I did... would I want a non-workable "pretty" dog? or a not quite as pleasing to the eye, but stock savy dog?

you asked for opinions! well you got them. and you can't be mad about that. you should have seen it comin.

nobody here is attacking you. its the IDEA of breeding for "fun" that is getting people rilied up.

 

BUT....

if you want to deal with 3-4 years of doggy diapers twice a year. training, herding, trialing, and exams. and she proves to be an EXCELLENT working dog, go for it!! breed her... and I will tell you, almost everybody here will tell you the same darn thing!

 

just please don't create more homeless dogs if you don't have to

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of how many homeless dogs there are, to say everyone should stop breeding is just as irresponsible as breeding for the wrong reasons. There has to be a viable gene pool. That is evident to people trying to save endangered animals from extinxtion. Even 200 breeding dogs can eventually lead to a too concentrated gene pool. Just imagine a town with a population of 1000. And they only married within that town and allowed no outsiders in. How long before some strange kids start getting born?

 

Several points here:

1. 6 mos is too young to determine breedability, regardless of parentage or any other "apparent" traits.

2. A dog/bitch does not have to be an open winner to breed, just that it is consistant in demonstrating what a Border Collie is.

3. No breeding will result in a guarentee of anything. Not working, inteligence, atheletic ability, temperment, etc. But good, sound, knowledgeable breeding increases the chances you will put good, sound, pups on the ground.

4. No one who takes a pup knows what the future brings. This includes adopted or purchased pups or dogs.

5. Only time and work will enable you to determine if a dog/bitch should breed. Time to learn about what makes a good working border collie, and working dogs so you know what to look for.

 

Jackson is a very sound dog. He has the absolute best temperment I have ever seen in a dog. He is smart as a whip. Fast as the wind. Loyal to the end. The patience of Job. He has excellent deciphering skills. He is loving and kind. He is not loud noise phobic. He has no seperation issues, or any issues for that matter. He is intent on anything he is doing. He is extremely biddable. He has a gorgeous coat. Beautiful eyes. But if he can't work sheep, he will not be passing any of these other traits on. Because he will not be bred. It's the whole package. Not just one or two things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and what if you did wait 3-4 years and she proved to not be a working dog? and had no stock sense? would you feel that you wasted your time and effort on her?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

Regardless of how many homeless dogs there are, to say everyone should stop breeding is just as irresponsible as breeding for the wrong reasons. There has to be a viable gene pool.

Dixie- No you misunderstood me. :D

 

What I said, was that IF every breeder stopped breeding there would still be homeless dogs years later as there just aren't enough homes or people interested. And there so many poor dogs in the shelters and rescues. :D

 

I didn't say I believe that they should all stop breeding. I was just trying to make a point not state a belief. That is not my belief anyhow.

 

That's why I said I would leave the breeding to those more knowledgeable than myself.

 

BUT now that you mentiont it, if all purebreed breeders around the world, DID stop breeding, there would still mixed breeds to take over the breeding right?

 

That is a very vast gene pool...lol. :rolleyes: There are the strays and gone wild( once domestic)dogs in parts of the world that would take over- etc.

 

But that is another problem I won't get into here...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Breeding is a very costly thing. There are the health tests, stud fee (and you have to find a good stud), possiblity of loss of pups and your bitch. Possibility of a c-section or other birthing problems, ultra sound, extra food, time off work. The list goes on...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...