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"Judging Conflict of Interest" ???


Jodi
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I have seen a few AHBA trials with sheep that were far from being knee knockers run on decent sized fields with loads of pressure. The robot dogs very quickly lost control and did not stand a chance. The dogs with real (natural) skill and good training had some nice runs. On average though, ISDS type trials are MUCH more difficult. I have run the same dog on both types of courses and I have even seen an Open level ISDS handler take a dog around an AHBA course to get her ready for trials. I just see the ASCA, AHBA and AKC trials as another form of N/N or P/N.

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Originally posted by Liz P:

I just see the ASCA, AHBA and AKC trials as another form of N/N or P/N.

Yep, for about 2-3 times the price. But I suppose you can get a nice certificate to put on your wall if you do well.

 

FWIW, I can't see any value in using those types of courses to tune up a trial dog, unless you mean an open handler running a young/novice dog in a lower class. Even so, you'd get more runs for your money by going to a regular USBCHA type trial (well, except for no certificate).

 

J.

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The beginning ASCA I've seen was way too easy to compare to any N/N course. Never seen advanced ASCA.

 

In the class I saw the dogs with more interest/ability actually looked like they were having a harder time because there was nothing for them to do. The dogs that did best had little interest and would simply follow the handler and sheep obediently.

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Kelpie Girl,

Did the aussie you so liked resemble a bc in any way? I'm not trying to start controversy, but once upon a time he was accused of crossing the two. This was before any verification of parentage. Maybe you already knew. I've seen a few of Bob Vest dogs and they do stand out as being "different".

 

Muddy

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Originally posted by SoloRiver:

The beginning ASCA I've seen was way too easy to compare to any N/N course.

What are your N/N courses like? Here in BC, there is a short outrun (about 100-150 yards), lift, fetch, drive, cross-drive and pen. I heard a rumour that in the States, there is no drive or cross-drive. True? Urban legend? Depends on the host since N/N is not sanctioned anyway?

 

Thanks in advance!

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Depends on the host. I've heard of all kinds of courses but the outrun you describe is about average.

 

The AHBA trial I did here used my sheep and ducks, which are far from being knee knockers. The distances set up for even the advanced classes were quite short however - and I got the impression that the distances were pretty much normal. I kept having trouble getting my head around the fact that we were measuring the distances in feet. I think the different breeds did a fine job in that venue but I'd hate to base my bragging rights as a Border collie person, on my success there and in AKC.

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Originally posted by airbear:

What are your N/N courses like? Here in BC, there is a short outrun (about 100-150 yards), lift, fetch, drive, cross-drive and pen. I heard a rumour that in the States, there is no drive or cross-drive. True? Urban legend? Depends on the host since N/N is not sanctioned anyway?

 

Thanks in advance!

Kristi,

As Becca said, a lot depends on what the host wants to do. In this area, folks in N/N usually do not drive, but they do wear. Usually it's just a wear through one set of panels and back to the pen. Sometimes there will be a short "cross wear." In the northeast, N/N handlers are allowed to wear or do an assisted drive (walk with the dog as it drives). I have no idea what is done in other parts of the country, but I'm sure it varies. Some localities even offer classes like pre-novice and beginner novice.

 

I'm with Becca on the distances thing too. It really is hard to get used to distances being measured in feet! I remember offering someone advice for a dog who was crossing over and then later she told me that the outrun was a couple hundred feet. Hard to imagine a dog crossing when the sheep are that close at hand, since in my experience, most crossovers occur when the dog can't see its sheep....

 

Kristi,

What is the breakdown of classes where you are? Is every class essentially a full course, just with shorter distances for everything (and presumably no shed till open)?

 

 

J.

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Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

What is the breakdown of classes where you are? Is every class essentially a full course, just with shorter distances for everything (and presumably no shed till open)?[/QB]

We (the BC Stockdog Association ) sanction Novice, Pro-Novice and Open (and Nursery) in sheep trials (field). Novice has the aforementioned short outrun, lift, fetch, drive, cross-drive, and pen. Pro Nov is slightly longer, and Nursery is run with the P/N class. Open, of course, has the big outwork, cross-drive and shed/pen.

 

(All this is related by someone with a grand total of 1 trial under her belt).

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Back home (northeast/mid-Atlantic) we had NN, PN, Ranch, and Open. NN was a short outrun, fetch, turn the post, wear through a set of panels, and pen. Normally you'd start assisted driving as a prep for moving up to PN. Some judges require that you tell them ahead of time whether you are going to wear or "drive."

 

PN was the same course slightly longer, with the drive required.

 

Ranch is a slightly shortened Open course with no shed.

 

Open is Open.

 

Here in California, there is no Ranch class and PN is the equivalent of Ranch back home. So far most the trials I have been to have had longer outruns for PN and Open than I was used to back home, but not all of them. I haven't seen a NN class here yet (or if I did I wasn't paying attention) so I'm not really sure what they do. I have seen announcements for trials that had "pre-novice" classes but don't know what they involve either. The biggest difference between here and home is the presumably huge leap between NN and PN, which is bridged back east by there being a PN and a Ranch class.

 

The ASCA beginner class I saw was in a pen that was smaller than 100x200 feet. The course involved picking up the sheep off of the fence at one end (where they'd been pushed through a gate into the pen) and then wearing them around the perimeter of the pen. There were "gates" to take the stock through, but since they were on the fence all you had to do was stay on the fence and the sheep would go through. These were nice tame sheep who would follow the handler regardless of what the dog did. Once you'd done your circuit the sheep were to be exhausted back through the gate they'd come out of, which, since it led straight from/to the holding pen they were quite happy to do. The one dog that looked really interested in the stock was a Kelpie who kept circling and trying to DO something. I don't know if he placed or not. The other dogs in the class just kind of followed along.

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Melanie, it sounds like you saw what the AHBA people would call a "Junior Herding Dog" course. The JHD title is just an instinct test that is supposed to require a bit of training. However, to prove a point once I took a BC who had never even SEEN sheep and ran the JHD course with him. Guess what, he passed. I've run in a few AHBA trials in the Northeast that were, aside from the 100 ft outrun, just as hard as the average N/N course. There was NO fencing around the 20 acre field, there were fetch panels, drive panels and cross drive panels and there was a free standing pen. The sheep (NOT knee knockers) were held out by a handler with a dog. So yes, the outrun was about 1/3 as long, but otherwise it was a N/N run. I've never run a trial in a 100 x 200 ft pen, although I have heard of them.

 

I've also seen some Bob Vest Aussies. As a matter of fact, the woman I rent sheep from owns a lovely male pup out of his latest litter. He looks nothing like her 2 show bred Aussies, but he looks no different that the working bred dogs I've seen on farms out west. Give him a tail and I guess he could pass for a BC. I'll have to ask her to work him on sheep so I can see his style.

 

Personally I think some people, especially AKC folks, are far too concerned about a dog being "purebred." Who cares what's in there as long as the dog is healthy and works well! Melanie, didn't you say there was a ROM Beardie in Fly's pedigree? Closed stud books are just plain crazy if you ask me. I think it's great that any dog that can work to a high standard can earn a ROM and enter the ISDS stud books. IMO that is how all breeds should be.

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Long as we're on the subject of Bearded Collies....

 

I found this export pedigree of a Bearded Collie that has Blue "ISDS" (I like how "ISDS" is not printed on the pedigree) 130312 twice in the dog's 3rd gen.

 

http://www.ptbordercollies.com/images/pics/fableped.jpg

 

Never saw Blue in any Bearded Collie pedigree before (that close anyway, only heard of him otherwise), only in Border Collie pedigrees, and found it worth book marking.

 

Katelynn

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ISDS is indicated by the "I" rather than the "K" before the number. This is standard practice - I believe if your dog has NASD ancestors this is indicated by "N" preceding the number on the ABCA papers.

 

Blue shows up in a lot of Beardie peds. there's some controversy about him (other than the ISDS registration) that has to do with how close he appears, but I have forgotten what it is. Julie might know. Something about registering a dog with Blue closer than the fourth line or whatever. . .

 

You'll note that this imported dog was the product of a half sibling mating. Someone was deliberately trying to concentrate Blue, is my guess.

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Sounds like a typical Vest dog. This drives the Aussie folks absolutely mad. I don't know if they ever did it, but the aussie club was seriously talking about insisting the aussie be "loose eyed" in the standard. I think I'll ask my client, who runs aussies, if it came about. I'm wondering if by the same reasoning they would deduct major points for a bc that was loose eyed running in one of their events. A lot of folks that don't know any better think my slick coat little loose eyed girl

must not be a real bc.

All this seemed to come to a head when a certain Vest dog won the nationals. The aussie nationals, of course.

The claim is that the Vest dogs have been line bred for ages to get to be what they are today and that they are not crossed with bc.

I don't know what to think. But I've seen quite a few that do look like bc with docked tails.

Just watch what you say around their owners you could get smacked for saying the wrong thing!

I do run across the person with that national champ and I've teased her about her other Vest dog being the twin of my boy (a very classic bc). She's got a sense of humour and lets me get away with it to a certain degree. I do know when to stop though.

 

muddy

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It seems to me that if the suspicions about Bob Vest having crossed border collies into his lines were based in fact, then it would have been incumbent upon the registry to have investigated the possible falsification of pedigrees (because that's what it would be if the owner substituted an aussie ped for a border collie ped). Since that investigation apparently wasn't undertaken, I have to wonder just how much truth there is to the rumor. And I wonder if such a rumor would have started or persisted if he hadn't bred a dog that won the nationals and also happens to have more eye then the average aussie.

 

FWIW, line breeding can very easily fix working traits. I own a dog that comes from a line breeding program and she works very much like just about every other dog in that line. If we agree that border collies run the gamut from too much eye to completely loose eyed, then I don't see why it wasn't possible that Australian shepherds also had that variation, at least in the early days. If someone took the early dogs that showed more eye and style and line bred them, then he certainly could end up with a line of aussies that worked more like border collies.

 

JMO. (Oh, and for those who are curious I don't know Bob Vest, nor have I ever owned a working aussie, so I have absolutely no personal interest in this discussion, beyond the fact that I find it irritating that human nature is to impugn someone's reputation without concrete proof, especially when that someone is doing better, say, at trialing, than the folks doing the impugning.)

 

J.

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There is a man whose integrity I respect and admire, and do not doubt. Some years back as a working Aussie breeder, he had an absolutely outstanding line of working Aussies that he bred, trained, and trialed (one male in particular was a great ranch dog, superior trialling Aussie, and prepotent sire).

 

Accompanying his success at the national level as well as regional level, some asserted that he must have cross-bred with Border Collies in his lines. I expect that's just sour grapes on the part of folks that ran against his dogs and didn't win, and wouldn't be surprised if that's also the case with Bob Vest (whom I never heard of before). It's hard to beat a combination of good breeding, strict culling, and meticulous training. It's easy to whine.

 

If ASCA wasn't concerned enough to "check it out", then it's simply hearsay or worse yet, malicious and unfounded slander. As Julie said, with the wide range of variation in the working-bred Border Collie, it stands to reason that there may well be a lot of variation in the working-bred Aussie. While the "standard" or "average" dog possesses certain traits of working style, temperament, and appearance, there will be dogs at both ends of the spectrum.

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I need to make it clear, I was not saying that I had any opinion at all on the matter. I was just reporting what has been widely suspected for a long time. It's not exactly a secret. And I wondered if people had heard the loose eyed/ strong eye controversy. I don't know the man or his practices, so I don't stand in judgement. Sue R's second paragragh pretty much sums it up, in my opinion.

By the way, I don't care what breed of dog it is or if it's even a mutt. A good dog is a joy to see. If folks don't like to be beaten they should train a better dog!

I thought I should clarify before I got jumped!

 

muddy

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Muddy,

I don't think anyone thought you were taking a position. I just felt the need to post for the sake of folks who might just be lurking and wondering if there is indeed truth to that rumor. Of course no one knows the answer but Bob Vest himself. But as someone who has heard comments like "the judge was lenient" or "the judge likes you" after beating someone at a trial, I know all too well how sour grapes can be the start of a story that may have no basis in fact....

 

Frankly I think it would be silly of the aussie club to write "loose eyed" into its standard when it could determine definitively if someone was playing fast and loose with pedigree info.

 

J.

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muddy bob wrote:

 

"A good dog is a joy to see. If folks don't like to be beaten they should train a better dog!"

 

EXACTLY! I find it funny that some non BC owners, a lot of them in fact, think they aren't welcome at BC trials. That's not the case at all! I see the odd Aussie or Kelpie run and the BC handlers are always rooting for them. We WANT to see quality dogs of other breeds. I have met some very nice, stylish Kelpies that I liked quite a bit. I might even buy one some day.

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Julie,

 

Renee says there was a very nice imported kelpie that ran in NN at the Blue Ridge Classic. This was the handler's first sheep trial and needed a description of what to do when. She indicated to me that if this handler had a better understanding of running a course the team could have won NN. Renee said this dog had more eye (but not sticky) than those we've seen before.

 

Mark

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The ASCA membership are currently being asked to vote on where the new Working Description will be published in ASCA rules and documents. The Working Description contains an Introduction and sections on Wear, Grip, Bark and Eye. The Eye section is quoted here in its entirety:

Since the Australian Shepherd is a loose-eyed working dog, he prefers to use his authority and presence to move livestock. However, if challenged, he may use eye in a direct and deliberate way until the challenge is over.
By the way, Rachel Vest is a candidate for ASCA Director this term.
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